Football 2020 & 2021 Football Classifications Released

[highschoolfootballnut]

playing up is a choice that a school can make

I say again this is my reasoning for not allowing opting down:
All of your above reasons of why that school is struggling and are that schools problems, not other schools problems and should not at any risk of any kind be shared with everyone because of that schools problem. This is not Burger King, you can't always have your way
This why coops are delayed to long, if this school just can not field a team, then start another sport or activity and those who want to play football can enroll in another school, or work hard to coop with someone. but opting down delays any actual solution and just prolongs the problem or shares it with everyone else. Not every school is going to be successful at everything, some will fail and always fail in and at certain things, so look for other things to be good at that fits your school

 

[CrdzGrl1]

If a team is opting down that has an enrollment of 65-72, I already have a good idea of how many kids they have out for football and what their school climate/culture is most likely like.

Placing blame for catastrophic injuries is ridiculous.

Below is the comment from further above that I was originally replying to. What I didn’t get to ask earlier - what incentive does a 6-man team get for playing a 6-man playoff ineligible team? Obviously, injuries happen in any class. However, 6-man teams get no bonus points for playing a team that opts down to 6-man, whereas other classes do.

“If we can't compete effectively (i.e. make playoffs once in a while) why not opt down, not be eligible for playoffs, and maybe win a few more games, give the kids some confidence, and maybe build the program in the future. No one wants to be a punching bag all the time. Success breeds success.”

 

[bruiser84]

Well first of all CrdzGrl1 that is not at all what your original post was about. You can't just delete a post, after starting a discussion. It causes confusion to those who join a conversation a little late. You made a comment about someone on your team getting a career ending injury against a team that was ineligible, and I think people were just saying you can't blame catastrophic injuries on someone opting down. It can happen at any time. And is unfortunate in any circumstance.
Secondly, to clarify, the part of my comment that you were quoting, was a statement of " the other side of the issue". The whole first part of the post was answering an earlier question of why it was sad that so many teams were opting down out of C2 into D1. Let it be known, I am not a big fan of opting down, but I can see why some schools want to do it.
Probably my biggest problem with opting down, is a problem that arises more in the smaller classes. And that is freshmen playing against seniors. Smaller schools may need to play freshmen to field a team. And a bigger school, who has opted down, can probably be playing more juniors and seniors. Yes, I know freshmen do play in A and B, but I believe for them to play at that level they are probably physically ready.
It can also be seen in the middle classes C1 and C2 who try and play JV. One school sees it as an opportunity to play freshmen and sophomores, and another school is playing second or third string varsity players no matter the grade, Huge differences in physical stature. I have seen some bloodbaths, more suited for the Roman Coliseum than a high school football field.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Below is the comment from further above that I was originally replying to. What I didn’t get to ask earlier - what incentive does a 6-man team get for playing a 6-man playoff ineligible team? Obviously, injuries happen in any class. However, 6-man teams get no bonus points for playing a team that opts down to 6-man, whereas other classes do.

“If we can't compete effectively (i.e. make playoffs once in a while) why not opt down, not be eligible for playoffs, and maybe win a few more games, give the kids some confidence, and maybe build the program in the future. No one wants to be a punching bag all the time. Success breeds success.”

and your few more wins are at the expense of other teams competing in the class the are suppose to be in, again sharing your problem and making it now effect other schools

 

[calnebari]

what is the feeling of the group on teams that opt down (specifically 11 to 8man), end season undefeated or one loss (with no playoffs), getting ranked over, or earning all state recognition over players from schools playing in the appropriate division? fair or unfair? the argument would be: would they have the record or stats to earn the same recognition in the class the state classification states.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

what is the feeling of the group on teams that opt down (specifically 11 to 8man), end season undefeated or one loss (with no playoffs), getting ranked over, or earning all state recognition over players from schools playing in the appropriate division? fair or unfair? the argument would be: would they have the record or stats to earn the same recognition in the class the state classification states.

unfair

 

[bruiser84]

In my opinion, all three are different animals. In the case of playoffs, we are talking about an NSAA sanctioned tournament. They set the rules, crown a champion of the tournament, that they call State Champion. An end of season ranking is just that. One man's or organization's OPINION of how the top teams compare. If they want to include non-eligible teams, fine, I just hope they take into account the extra games an eligible team had to play.
In the case of individual honors, I don't think I could penalize a player because his school opted down. Would he have been all state one level up? Who knows. But what is the difference. All state recognition only means you had a good season at a certain level of play A,B,C, D whatever. It is hard to compare players from different classes. Would a Class D-2 running back who rushes for 2000 yards be All State at the C,B, or A level? We will never know. All we know is they performed at a high level in the class they were in. So the same goes for a defensive end in D1 (who moved down from a perennial C2 school) who had 132 tackles, including 25 tackles for loss, and 18 qb sacks. Would he have had those numbers in a higher class? Don't know, but comparing him to the kids in the class he actually played in, he is an all state player. And the honorable mention defensive end, who isn't all state because this kid "took" his spot, has just received a real world lesson.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

In my opinion, all three are different animals. In the case of playoffs, we are talking about an NSAA sanctioned tournament. They set the rules, crown a champion of the tournament, that they call State Champion. An end of season ranking is just that. One man's or organization's OPINION of how the top teams compare. If they want to include non-eligible teams, fine, I just hope they take into account the extra games an eligible team had to play.
In the case of individual honors, I don't think I could penalize a player because his school opted down. Would he have been all state one level up? Who knows. But what is the difference. All state recognition only means you had a good season at a certain level of play A,B,C, D whatever. It is hard to compare players from different classes. Would a Class D-2 running back who rushes for 2000 yards be All State at the C,B, or A level? We will never know. All we know is they performed at a high level in the class they were in. So the same goes for a defensive end in D1 (who moved down from a perennial C2 school) who had 132 tackles, including 25 tackles for loss, and 18 qb sacks. Would he have had those numbers in a higher class? Don't know, but comparing him to the kids in the class he actually played in, he is an all state player. And the honorable mention defensive end, who isn't all state because this kid "took" his spot, has just received a real world lesson.

yeah why not, let everyone do what they want and hold no one accountable, lets just fix it all and go to 4 classes and be done with it
A-- 500 and up
B 499 to 199
C 198 and down
D 99 and down

 

[bruiser84]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I have already stated I am not in favor of opting down. I thought the question was, in the system we have now, (where opting down is an option). Ineligible = no State Championship. If a newspaper wants to rank you, that is there business. Who cares? Nobody outside of your school district will remember 2 years down the road.
In the individual player's case, he put up the numbers. Same goes for a kid who moves from one school district to another. If he has all state numbers at his new school so be it. It is against a certain class size competition, with 8 men on the field, playing by the same set of rules, on the same size field. Is Class D1 All State, equivalent to Class B All State. That is up to Scott Frost to decide.

 

[Huskerfangary]

Do we know what class Elkhorn North will be in yet?

 

[Alum-Ni]

Do we know what class Elkhorn North will be in yet?

B

 

[bullhusk]

It's a fact that a higher socioeconomic class equals a higher participation rate in extracurricular activities is what I believe he's saying.

Yes! See St. Francis... they'll likely have 20+ kids out next year.... Parents usually don't pay $1,000's of dollars for schooling (unless uber religious) for little Johnny to play the trombone on the shitty small school band.

 

[Huskerfangary]

B

So I assume cause EHS is splitting will they go back down to B? They played mostly Class A teams this year

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I have already stated I am not in favor of opting down. I thought the question was, in the system we have now, (where opting down is an option). Ineligible = no State Championship. If a newspaper wants to rank you, that is there business. Who cares? Nobody outside of your school district will remember 2 years down the road.
In the individual player's case, he put up the numbers. Same goes for a kid who moves from one school district to another. If he has all state numbers at his new school so be it. It is against a certain class size competition, with 8 men on the field, playing by the same set of rules, on the same size field. Is Class D1 All State, equivalent to Class B All State. That is up to Scott Frost to decide.

Schools are not using opting down to build their program, they are cheating the system and staying 8-man even if they start winning, they are in the position they are in because they have an excuse for everything

 

[Alum-Ni]

So I assume cause EHS is splitting will they go back down to B? They played mostly Class A teams this year

Correct. Elkhorn and Elkhorn North will both be Class B. Elkhorn South will remain in Class A.

However, with the growth in that area, I think it's only a matter of time (and not much at that) before all three schools are in Class A again.

Unless Elkhorn wants to just continue building high schools.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

Schools are not using opting down to build their program, they are cheating the system and staying 8-man even if they start winning, they are in the position they are in because they have an excuse for everything

Schools are opting down because they are not able to compete at level of enrollment due to many factors from participation or other demographic info, stop repeating the same old thing and don’t bring up Wakefield, which is the outlier, no one cares that Madison and Conestoga play down, they can’t compete even as opt down, same as SSC.

 

[bruiser84]

Schools are opting down because they are not able to compete at level of enrollment due to many factors from participation or other demographic info, stop repeating the same old thing and don’t bring up Wakefield, which is the outlier, no one cares that Madison and Conestoga play down, they can’t compete even as opt down, same as SSC.

LOL> Welllll, that should just about take care of this thread. Thank you, Big Red.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Schools are opting down because they are not able to compete at level of enrollment due to many factors from participation or other demographic info, stop repeating the same old thing and don’t bring up Wakefield, which is the outlier, no one cares that Madison and Conestoga play down, they can’t compete even as opt down, same as SSC.

TOTAL # DECLARATION CLASS CLASS # TEAM NAME BOY ENROLLMENT 132 8 D1(ineligible) 1 CONESTOGA {89} new to 8-man
D1(ineligible) 2 MADISON {68} 2-6 last year still rebuilding I assume
D1(ineligible) 3 WAKEFIELD {54} 7-1 last year must still need more time to rebuild
D1(ineligible) 4 PALMYRA {48} 4-4 last year must need more time also
D1(ineligible) 5 Ravenna {60} 7-1 last year must need more time also

ineligible teams went 20-12 last year
thats 20 wins at the cost of other teams who are playing in the class they should.
Ravenna beat two teams that the lost to Ravenna knocked them out of playoffs and Wakefield beat an 0-8 and 1-7 team by a combined score of 154 to 28
Palmyra beat two teams that the loss kept them from playoffs
so dont tell me that these schools problems do not effect other schools now in a negative way, and this took like 5 minutes to find
again i am not blaming these schools for doing what they are doing, under the current rule the are following all rules, but I am against all the excuses for the rule and that it doesnt negatively effect other teams and now makes a problem for one school the problem of other schools, and that they are doing to rebuild a program because the are not trying to rebuild. heck even in 6-man look at Harvard they won a 6-man title with a count of 40 and still are staying and not going 8-man even though they are over and ineligible

 

[Yossarian23]

TOTAL # DECLARATION CLASS CLASS # TEAM NAME BOY ENROLLMENT 132 8 D1(ineligible) 1 CONESTOGA {89} new to 8-man
D1(ineligible) 2 MADISON {68} 2-6 last year still rebuilding I assume
D1(ineligible) 3 WAKEFIELD {54} 7-1 last year must still need more time to rebuild
D1(ineligible) 4 PALMYRA {48} 4-4 last year must need more time also
D1(ineligible) 5 Ravenna {60} 7-1 last year must need more time also

ineligible teams went 20-12 last year
thats 20 wins at the cost of other teams who are playing in the class they should.
Ravenna beat two teams that the lost to Ravenna knocked them out of playoffs and Wakefield beat an 0-8 and 1-7 team by a combined score of 154 to 28
Palmyra beat two teams that the loss kept them from playoffs
so dont tell me that these schools problems do not effect other schools now in a negative way, and this took like 5 minutes to find
again i am not blaming these schools for doing what they are doing, under the current rule the are following all rules, but I am against all the excuses for the rule and that it doesnt negatively effect other teams and now makes a problem for one school the problem of other schools, and that they are doing to rebuild a program because the are not trying to rebuild. heck even in 6-man look at Harvard they won a 6-man title with a count of 40 and still are staying and not going 8-man even though they are over and ineligible

I'm not going to argue the overall point...but I would say Weeping Water's loss to a 2-6 Heartland team and EMF's loss to a 3-5 Thayer Central is what kept them out of the playoffs. And I have no clue what teams you're arguing would have been in off of Ravenna's schedule, because the only teams that didn't make it in were 2-6 or worse.

These school's problems did not keep other school's out of the playoffs, as the rest of their schedule indicates that an average team that should be in their class could have just as easily beat them as Palmyra and Ravenna did.

 

[CrdzGrl1]

It was deleted in error when I tried updating it after the repeated “ridiculous” responses. Back to the question I asked in my response that I may have missed others thoughts on. True 6-man teams get NO bonus points for playing 6-man playoff-ineligible teams. So what benefit is there then in playing those 6-man ineligible teams? You’re at risk of a loss, thus potentially affecting your own playoff chances. Also, you mention the opt-down problem arising more in the smaller classes with freshmen potentially playing against seniors. Wouldn’t that possibly create an increased risk of injury?

Well first of all CrdzGrl1 that is not at all what your original post was about. You can't just delete a post, after starting a discussion. It causes confusion to those who join a conversation a little late. You made a comment about someone on your team getting a career ending injury against a team that was ineligible, and I think people were just saying you can't blame catastrophic injuries on someone opting down. It can happen at any time. And is unfortunate in any circumstance.
Secondly, to clarify, the part of my comment that you were quoting, was a statement of " the other side of the issue". The whole first part of the post was answering an earlier question of why it was sad that so many teams were opting down out of C2 into D1. Let it be known, I am not a big fan of opting down, but I can see why some schools want to do it.
Probably my biggest problem with opting down, is a problem that arises more in the smaller classes. And that is freshmen playing against seniors. Smaller schools may need to play freshmen to field a team. And a bigger school, who has opted down, can probably be playing more juniors and seniors. Yes, I know freshmen do play in A and B, but I believe for them to play at that level they are probably physically ready.
It can also be seen in the middle classes C1 and C2 who try and play JV. One school sees it as an opportunity to play freshmen and sophomores, and another school is playing second or third string varsity players no matter the grade, Huge differences in physical stature. I have seen some bloodbaths, more suited for the Roman Coliseum than a high school football field.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

It was deleted in error when I tried updating it after the repeated “ridiculous” responses. Back to the question I asked in my response that I may have missed others thoughts on. True 6-man teams get NO bonus points for playing 6-man playoff-ineligible teams. So what benefit is there then in playing those 6-man ineligible teams? You’re at risk of a loss, thus potentially affecting your own playoff chances. Also, you mention the opt-down problem arising more in the smaller classes with freshmen potentially playing against seniors. Wouldn’t that possibly create an increased risk of injury?

ok you guys have explained the benefits of a team opting down, they can work to get better, they can play more upperclassmen, they can rebuild and so on. What is the benefit for a team who has to play a team opting down ?

 

[bruiser84]

It was deleted in error when I tried updating it after the repeated “ridiculous” responses. Back to the question I asked in my response that I may have missed others thoughts on. True 6-man teams get NO bonus points for playing 6-man playoff-ineligible teams. So what benefit is there then in playing those 6-man ineligible teams? You’re at risk of a loss, thus potentially affecting your own playoff chances. Also, you mention the opt-down problem arising more in the smaller classes with freshmen potentially playing against seniors. Wouldn’t that possibly create an increased risk of injury?

I don't know why there are no bonus points for 6 man. In my opinion there should be the same as D1 and D2. If someone is in the know it would be nice to hear. The points for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd division wins and losses, does reward you for playing a quality team. So if that ineligible team is upper division, you will receive more point for playing them. If they are lower division you do not, but if they are lower division they are probably not taking your playoff spot.
And yes I think any time seniors are playing against freshman there is a greater chance of injuries. That is why I said that is my biggest problem with opting down. And if that is what happened in your school's particular injury situation where an opposing senior from an ineligible team, went against a freshman on your team, and an injury occurred, it sickens me. If coaches are having to play freshmen just to field a team, things like this are going to happen. But it can happen with teams not opting down, or on your own practice field for that matter.

 

[Yossarian23]

I don't know why there are no bonus points for 6 man. In my opinion there should be the same as D1 and D2. If someone is in the know it would be nice to hear. The points for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd division wins and losses, does reward you for playing a quality team. So if that ineligible team is upper division, you will receive more point for playing them. If they are lower division you do not, but if they are lower division they are probably not taking your playoff spot.
And yes I think any time seniors are playing against freshman there is a greater chance of injuries. That is why I said that is my biggest problem with opting down. And if that is what happened in your school's particular injury situation where an opposing senior from an ineligible team, went against a freshman on your team, and an injury occurred, it sickens me. If coaches are having to play freshmen just to field a team, things like this are going to happen. But it can happen with teams not opting down, or on your own practice field for that matter.

Just to the bolded: it is the same as D1, at least currently. D1 schools do not get bonus points for playing an ineligible D1. D2 gets bonus points for playing a D1 school, just like C2 gets them for playing C1, or C1 for playing B, or B for playing A.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

TOTAL # DECLARATION CLASS CLASS # TEAM NAME BOY ENROLLMENT 132 8 D1(ineligible) 1 CONESTOGA {89} new to 8-man
D1(ineligible) 2 MADISON {68} 2-6 last year still rebuilding I assume
D1(ineligible) 3 WAKEFIELD {54} 7-1 last year must still need more time to rebuild
D1(ineligible) 4 PALMYRA {48} 4-4 last year must need more time also
D1(ineligible) 5 Ravenna {60} 7-1 last year must need more time also

ineligible teams went 20-12 last year
thats 20 wins at the cost of other teams who are playing in the class they should.
Ravenna beat two teams that the lost to Ravenna knocked them out of playoffs and Wakefield beat an 0-8 and 1-7 team by a combined score of 154 to 28
Palmyra beat two teams that the loss kept them from playoffs
so dont tell me that these schools problems do not effect other schools now in a negative way, and this took like 5 minutes to find
again i am not blaming these schools for doing what they are doing, under the current rule the are following all rules, but I am against all the excuses for the rule and that it doesnt negatively effect other teams and now makes a problem for one school the problem of other schools, and that they are doing to rebuild a program because the are not trying to rebuild. heck even in 6-man look at Harvard they won a 6-man title with a count of 40 and still are staying and not going 8-man even though they are over and ineligible

Again, there are always a couple of outlier teams that make the point against opting down, most ineligible teams do it to get kids out for football and have the ability to compete and keep kids interested, you are making a point that a 2-6 team didn’t make the playoffs because they lost to an ineligible team, this highlights another problem that a 2-6 or 3-5 team should not be in the playoffs

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Again, there are always a couple of outlier teams that make the point against opting down, most ineligible teams do it to get kids out for football and have the ability to compete and keep kids interested, you are making a point that a 2-6 team didn’t make the playoffs because they lost to an ineligible team, this highlights another problem that a 2-6 or 3-5 team should not be in the playoffs

a couple of outlier teams you say, with 50% of the opting teams having a 7-1 record and 75% being 500 or better. thats way more than a few outliers. Again I ask what are the benfits for a team to play a team opting down ?