8 man enrollment limit

[nenebskers]

23 of 50 states offer 8 man football. I researched the Midwest states to see how Nebraskas enrollment criteria compares to others. I didn't look at ALabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, hawaii, Michigan, Mississippi, Nevada, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, or Washington. My assumption is that their enrollment limits would be very similar if not even larger. I've been a big proponent of upping the enrollment limit up to 90 or 95 and after my research I'm thinking that 100 or even 115 might be better.

Currently 26%, 14 of 55, of class D1 is over the enrollment limit. Hello NSAA, do you think something is wrong here! Heck 15%, 8 of 55, are ineligible for the playoffs but elect to play 8 man anyway. The NSAA voted to increase the enrollment limit this past year and if was shot down, I believe at a 1 for and 7 against measure.

I would recommend increasing the limit to 100 or even 115 and giving schools the option to opt up to 11 man, which I'm sure many schools would do. The current limit is way to low as schools instead have to opt down and tell kids that they have no opportunity for postseason, surely a tough sell for coaches to kids, yet schools are doing it, more and more every two years!

Kansas-3 year enrollment up to 100, can opt up to 11 man

Colorado-3 year enrollment between 76-135, can opt up to 11 man (6-man has 3 year enrollment between 1-75)

Iowa-3 year enrollment up to 115, can opt up to 11 man

Missouri-4 year enrollment up to 200

South Dakota-9 MAN-3 year male enrollments up to 56 (equivelant to 112)

Wyoming-no 8 man, 3 year enrollment for 6 man up to 71

Oklahoma-smallest 80 schools can petition to play 8 man, currently 76 of 80 schools opted to play 8 man. They are divided into two classes with class B 3 year enrollments ranging from 89 to 158 and class C enrollments 86 and below

Montana-3 year enrollment 119 and below, 6 man enrollment 75 and below

Texas, no 8 man, 6 man 3 year enrollment of 99 and below

Wisconsin-could not find enrollment figures. Currently they have 23 schools in 8 man and it appears that 8 man is just starting in the state. On Oct 31 they are having an 8 team Jamboree featuring the top two teams from four geographic regions beginning at 10:00 am. This is not considered a playoff or state championship. Once they have 30 schools in 8 man they will have a 16 team playoff. in order for a school to be eligible for the jamboree the schools 3 year enrollment must be below 200.

 

[runningback43]

You realize that if the number would increase to 115, that teams like David City Aquinas would have been eligible for 8 man last year. In fact three of the four semi-finalists in C-2 would have been eligible for the playoffs in 8 man last year with the number at 115. Would you rather Nebraska have two classes of 11 man football and 4 classes of 8 man football?

I talked to an 8 man coach yesterday, and he's getting sick and tired of schools opting down from 11 man to play 8 man even though they are ineligible for the playoffs.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

You realize that if the number would increase to 115, that teams like David City Aquinas would have been eligible for 8 man last year. In fact three of the four semi-finalists in C-2 would have been eligible for the playoffs in 8 man last year with the number at 115. Would you rather Nebraska have two classes of 11 man football and 4 classes of 8 man football?

I talked to an 8 man coach yesterday, and he's getting sick and tired of schools opting down from 11 man to play 8 man even though they are ineligible for the playoffs.

The fact is that it is the lowest enrollment in the united stats of America and because of this 32 of the 40 teams make the playoffs in D-1. Its harder not to make the playoffs in D-1 than to actually make the playoffs WHAT A JOKE

 

[northeastNebraska]

I really wish ther was just one Class for 8 man football but I know it won't happen.

You could bring up the number a little, but not much more. It all depends on the school, if your historically good, you are going to have more kids out. Like GACC, the younger kids grow up watching the past teams win so everyone wants to go out.

The NSAA just needs to encourage co-ops. It's as simple as that. More teams get to C2, or stay competitive in D1 or can moved up to D1.

Some co-ops that I would like to see going up from D2 to D1 or C2

-Emerson-Hubbard and Pender (would be a big C2, where each school was 7 years ago, already co-op in track.)
-Wakefield and Allen (would go up to a comfortable C2, only 11 miles apart)
-Logan View and Scribner-Snyder (would be C1, co-opting this year in basketball. Only 7 miles apart.)
-Wayne and Winside (would be a Class B only 12 miles apart.)
-Osmond and Randolph (would be a C2 for awhile, only 13 miles apart.)
-Osceola and Shelby (This will probably happen soon, only 7 miles apart. Would be a C2)
-St. Edward and Boone Central or Cedar Rapids. Really there is no reason for St. Ed to be alone anymore. (Would be still be C1 with Boone, and would be D1 with Riverside.)

 

[scuba8803]

"Osceola and Shelby (This will probably happen soon, only 7 miles apart. Would be a C2"

This not going to happen Shelby/Rising City is already C2 but I do agree with you coops and consolidations need to start happening. Especially east of Kearney, there are alot of towns that could come together but will not because of "Pride".

 

[runningback43]

Here are some enrollment numbers for some really good C-2 schools. Sutton 95, Oakland-Craig 91, St. Cecilia 89, West Holt 89, North Platte St. Pats 85. Last I looked all of these schools are having a good year. I don't think the enrollment number for 8 man should change. If people don't like that 32 of 40 teams make the playoffs, do what class C did last year and drop it to 16 teams for the playoffs and have a 9 game regular season.

I would like to see the NSAA change to counting only boys for enrollment numbers for football though.

 

[Buff-alo]

Check your numbers...Wakefield/Allen would be C1 and competing against Norfolk Catholic, Pierce, and probably Boone Central. Before you just so recklessly suggest Co-ops, do some research on your towns. That would not be a good Co-op at this point in time. Also don't throw Aquinas and GACC into this discussion. I'm not starting a private/public schools debate here, but two totally different dynamics of student populations to pick from to build football programs. Go talk to any Coach that opts down to 8 man, and I put my money on it that they will give you a very long list of reasons of why they chose to do so. Also, if you check the programs that are opting down, it's not like they are dominating D1, in most cases they are still struggling to have a winning record. The number should be increased no higher than 100, 115 is way to high.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

So your argument is that good teams could go 8-man and that you dont want your team to play them OMG thats a sad case if so

 

[runningback43]

No, what I'm saying is that schools with enrollment numbers at the bottom of C-2 are doing just fine in C-2. I've heard a rumor that a C-1 school is going to apply to play 8 man in the next cycle as well.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

No, what I'm saying is that schools with enrollment numbers at the bottom of C-2 are doing just fine in C-2. I've heard a rumor that a C-1 school is going to apply to play 8 man in the next cycle as well.

I see, but you can make that case the other way also, Teams with same or more numbers who have not won a game Still not a valid reason

 

[runningback43]

Why is not winning a game an excuse to play 8 man football? Can a Class A or B team opt down a class because they aren't competitive? How about D-1 schools that aren't competitive, can they opt down to D-2?

The only schools that I can understand opting down to 8 man are the one's that have an enrollment in the low 90's and females make up about 60% of that enrollment.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Why is not winning a game an excuse to play 8 man football? Can a Class A or B team opt down a class because they aren't competitive? How about D-1 schools that aren't competitive, can they opt down to D-2?

The only schools that I can understand opting down to 8 man are the one's that have an enrollment in the low 90's and females make up about 60% of that enrollment.

I am not saying it is but you are saying winning games is a reason, so in return then not winning is also a reason

 

[northeastNebraska]

"Osceola and Shelby (This will probably happen soon, only 7 miles apart. Would be a C2"

This not going to happen Shelby/Rising City is already C2 but I do agree with you coops and consolidations need to start happening. Especially east of Kearney, there are alot of towns that could come together but will not because of "Pride".

Do you think Osceola would go with Cross County? At least they have options with them or Shelby if it came down to it. Or would Cross County rather take in High Plains?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Why is not winning a game an excuse to play 8 man football? Can a Class A or B team opt down a class because they aren't competitive? How about D-1 schools that aren't competitive, can they opt down to D-2?

The only schools that I can understand opting down to 8 man are the one's that have an enrollment in the low 90's and females make up about 60% of that enrollment.

I think it should be raised because of the amount of teams above enrollment opting down, the other choice I think its a better choice is stop letting teams go down, many other States have cut offs higher in 8-man but dont let teams opt in if they are above. Raise to 90 and dont let teams above come in and keep the one year above is okay but after that back to 11-man

 

[northeastNebraska]

Check your numbers...Wakefield/Allen would be C1 and competing against Norfolk Catholic, Pierce, and probably Boone Central. Before you just so recklessly suggest Co-ops, do some research on your towns. That would not be a good Co-op at this point in time. Also don't throw Aquinas and GACC into this discussion. I'm not starting a private/public schools debate here, but two totally different dynamics of student populations to pick from to build football programs. Go talk to any Coach that opts down to 8 man, and I put my money on it that they will give you a very long list of reasons of why they chose to do so. Also, if you check the programs that are opting down, it's not like they are dominating D1, in most cases they are still struggling to have a winning record. The number should be increased no higher than 100, 115 is way to high.

You are correct Wakefield and Allan would be at the C1 level, and both seem to be doing fine in their respective classes, but in the future, it's something to look at.

I would rather see more 11 man teams across Nebraska. At least trying co-ops for two years, if it doesn't work than it doesn't work. Especially for teams in northeast Nebraska.

 

[northeastNebraska]

I think it should be raised because of the amount of teams above enrollment opting down, the other choice I think its a better choice is stop letting teams go down, many other States have cut offs higher in 8-man but dont let teams opt in if they are above. Raise to 90 and dont let teams above come in and keep the one year above is okay but after that back to 11-man

What is the actually cutoff line for 8 man? Like without exemptions? 82?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

What is the actually cutoff line for 8 man? Like without exemptions? 82?

83 for playoffs but anyone can opt in

 

[northeastNebraska]

83 for playoffs but anyone can opt in

Gotcha. I don't like how anyone can opt in. I understand certain circumstances but would rather see some schools trying to do something during their two year stay to get back to 11 man.

 

[oldnewballcoach]

I don't like the ability for schools to opt down. I know that they are not allowed to play in the postseason, but they are allowed to affect the post-season all year long. Their record(which affects their opponents powerpoints) and the games they win against playoff eligible opponents can have a very big affect on the scope of the playoffs. This isn't merely who gets in(because I think its too large of a percentage) but rather who gets home games and such. Why should school who are suppose to be in D-1 be affected by schools with too large of enrollment. Isn't that the point of classes anyways?

 

[OutlawTrail]

I think it would be better to set the bar high and not allow teams to opt down anymore. Allow teams that are competitive at 11 man and wish to opt up to do so. But opting down needs to be fixed and it needs fixed at the state level.

 

[Buff-alo]

Until your school is in a situation where it might have to or actually does "opt" down...don't judge. There are all types of reasons for doing so...the list is very long. I think we can all agree that Nebraska's Classification System is outdated and it is time to make adjustments. Percentage of boys and girls in the 3 year enrollment probably being the biggest. The fact is the dynamic of small town Nebraska has changed. Yes it is time for consolidation or Co-op in some instances, and your have seen a movement towards that in the last 10 years and will continue to see it, it just takes time. Until then the NSAA better be careful, because they have C-2 teams trying to limp through the season with low numbers and young and undersized players playing at the varsity level against top notch competition. Is it going to take a kid getting seriously hurt or worse killed for them to open their eyes? C-2 has problems and they need to be addressed.

 

[nenebskers]

Outlaw trail and Highschoolfootballnut, agree with you guys 100%. Make the limit higher and give the schools the option to move up instead of having the lowest limit in the country and having schools option down.

Also great point by oldnewballcoach...schools that are ineligible for the playoffs still affect the playoffs by their performance throughout the regular season.

Also, I didn't research 6 man enrollment info for other states but did post it if it was with the 8 man info. Of the state's I did see info on, their 6 man cutoff is almost, if not exceed Nebraska's 8 man limit.

 

[scuba8803]

I agree the NSAA classification system needs improvement, but I would take it one step further and say the State Senate needs to step in and put stipulations on schools like Iowa does. If a schools enrollment falls below a certain number of kids they have to consolidate.

 

[northeastNebraska]

I agree the NSAA classification system needs improvement, but I would take it one step further and say the State Senate needs to step in and put stipulations on schools like Iowa does. If a schools enrollment falls below a certain number of kids they have to consolidate.

I totally agree with this.

 

[northeastNebraska]

I don't like the ability for schools to opt down. I know that they are not allowed to play in the postseason, but they are allowed to affect the post-season all year long. Their record(which affects their opponents powerpoints) and the games they win against playoff eligible opponents can have a very big affect on the scope of the playoffs. This isn't merely who gets in(because I think its too large of a percentage) but rather who gets home games and such. Why should school who are suppose to be in D-1 be affected by schools with too large of enrollment. Isn't that the point of classes anyways?

I agree. I understand some schools move down and aren't eligible for playoffs, well the points from that game win or lose shouldn't count towards the year end total of points.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

I totally agree with this.

It hard to agree with that, our tax system is way different than Iowa and education money and small school receive almost nothing from state tax dollars to run a school and in some cases the do receive nothing, if that community wants a school and wants to fund it Then its hard to say you cant. It would different if they were not supported by local tax dollars and voted to do so by its community

 

[huskersox86]

I agree the NSAA classification system needs improvement, but I would take it one step further and say the State Senate needs to step in and put stipulations on schools like Iowa does. If a schools enrollment falls below a certain number of kids they have to consolidate.

It will never work in Nebraska. This has been proposed, and the number was something ridiculous like 850 K-12 kids or have to consolidate. That would include most C2 schools. Try this in Western, NE where you may have to merge 6-10 school districts to do this. Have fun driving 80+miles to school each day. Nebraska's makeup is much different than Iowa's, especially Western NE.

Even if you lower the number to 500 K-12, and that is still quite a few C2 schools. So, where is the tipping point that the state says do this or else? That's why it will never work, because not everything can fit into the cookie cutter mold.

Raise the number to 93, make the teams 11 man eligible play 11 man, no choices. That will move up approx. 8 teams. Add the 5 or 6 (maybe) 11 man teams that would make the move into D-1 and have a legit 50-55 D-1 teams and 50-55 D-2 teams.

 

[scuba8803]

It hard to agree with that, our tax system is way different than Iowa and education money and small school receive almost nothing from state tax dollars to run a school and in some cases the do receive nothing, if that community wants a school and wants to fund it Then its hard to say you cant. It would different if they were not supported by local tax dollars and voted to do so by its community

Well then this enrollment issue is a mute point then. Unless communities are willing to coop or consolidate in which 80% towns are not this will be an ongoing issue.

 

[scuba8803]

It will never work in Nebraska. This has been proposed, and the number was something ridiculous like 850 K-12 kids or have to consolidate. That would include most C2 schools. Try this in Western, NE where you may have to merge 6-10 school districts to do this. Have fun driving 80+miles to school each day. Nebraska's makeup is much different than Iowa's, especially Western NE.

Even if you lower the number to 500 K-12, and that is still quite a few C2 schools. So, where is the tipping point that the state says do this or else? That's why it will never work, because not everything can fit into the cookie cutter mold.

Raise the number to 93, make the teams 11 man eligible play 11 man, no choices. That will move up approx. 8 teams. Add the 5 or 6 (maybe) 11 man teams that would make the move into D-1 and have a legit 50-55 D-1 teams and 50-55 D-2 teams.

500 is ridiculous but it should be around 250 and yes you need to make it fit nebraska. So if schools are a certain number of miles apart they would not have to consolidate.

 

[Buff-alo]

It will never work in Nebraska. This has been proposed, and the number was something ridiculous like 850 K-12 kids or have to consolidate. That would include most C2 schools. Try this in Western, NE where you may have to merge 6-10 school districts to do this. Have fun driving 80+miles to school each day. Nebraska's makeup is much different than Iowa's, especially Western NE.

Even if you lower the number to 500 K-12, and that is still quite a few C2 schools. So, where is the tipping point that the state says do this or else? That's why it will never work, because not everything can fit into the cookie cutter mold.

Raise the number to 93, make the teams 11 man eligible play 11 man, no choices. That will move up approx. 8 teams. Add the 5 or 6 (maybe) 11 man teams that would make the move into D-1 and have a legit 50-55 D-1 teams and 50-55 D-2 teams.

No Choices for the teams that opt down...what if that is their only choice. So many of you are experts on these schools that have decided to opt down. Do you know their situation? Their school make-up (boys/girls)?Poverty Level/Free Reduced Lunch? You all make it sound like it is such a simple solution...don't forgot about the ones actually impacted here. How many more seasons do you want to see canceled a the midpoint because it is no longer possible to field a team? If they opt down they are not eligible for playoffs, pretty fair trade off I think. Trust me, if they are opting down their program probably isn't a football powerhouse. As stated before most of the schools that are opting down still struggle to have a winning record in D1.

 

[oldnewballcoach]

No Choices for the teams that opt down...what if that is their only choice. So many of you are experts on these schools that have decided to opt down. Do you know their situation? Their school make-up (boys/girls)?Poverty Level/Free Reduced Lunch? You all make it sound like it is such a simple solution...don't forgot about the ones actually impacted here. How many more seasons do you want to see canceled a the midpoint because it is no longer possible to field a team? If they opt down they are not eligible for playoffs, pretty fair trade off I think. Trust me, if they are opting down their program probably isn't a football powerhouse. As stated before most of the schools that are opting down still struggle to have a winning record in D1.

2010 I believe it was when Johnson Brock went 8-0 and wasn't eligible for playoffs. The 8 teams they played were negatively affected by a team that was too big to be in that class. If a school can't field teams at their class they need to co-op or not field the sport. I know there are a lot of reasons. Some of them include "wanting to be competitive." That makes it seem like summer softball where everyone makes it to state if they want to.

 

[Antone13]

This is an idea and i do not know how well it would work. Instead of starting at the top and counting down. Lets start at the bottom and count up. The first 48(where ever u want to make this divide) are in D-2. the next 48 are in D-1. The next 48 C-2 and next 48 C-1. Then see where you are on the list. Class A needs 28 teams. The teams that are left in the middle are class B. The schools have to compete in there class designated. Those want to compete in 6 man can. I the team cannot field a team they can compete in 6 man if the state would sanction 6 man. This way it does away with where to draw the line at with enrollment

 

[Buff-alo]

2010 I believe it was when Johnson Brock went 8-0 and wasn't eligible for playoffs. The 8 teams they played were negatively affected by a team that was too big to be in that class. If a school can't field teams at their class they need to co-op or not field the sport. I know there are a lot of reasons. Some of them include "wanting to be competitive." That makes it seem like summer softball where everyone makes it to state if they want to.

Well that is one example...and all 8-0 got them was watching many of the teams they probably beat in the play-offs. Plus if they were 8-0 that's a 38 point loss via power points, so I'm thinking it didn't have too negative of an impact. "Most" of the schools opt down for the right reasons. Just saying...if you haven't been in the shoes of the coaches and schools that had to make this choice you shouldn't judge because you are making an uneducated opinion.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Is there still a grace period? I think there is and some could be opting down during the grace period because they project they'll fall back to 8 man numbers in the next cycle. I agree the number needs raised. Doesn't make sense being so low.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Well then this enrollment issue is a mute point then. Unless communities are willing to coop or consolidate in which 80% towns are not this will be an ongoing issue.

Your correct, you can not force coop or consolidation in Nebraska, local districts are supported 90% by local tax money. The logical choice of change, is to raise to 90 or 95 and make opting down not a choice, you have to be at or below to play 8-man, leave the one year above cycle but with in a 2 year cycle you must be below once or you play 11-man. Everyone is playoff ready and you wont have districts with one or even two teams that can not even make playoffs. You will get 50 to 60 teams in D-1 and 32 make it. Or better yet go to 16 teams but that wont happen in 8-man

 

[Buff-alo]

Is there still a grace period? I think there is and some could be opting down during the grace period because they project they'll fall back to 8 man numbers in the next cycle. I agree the number needs raised. Doesn't make sense being so low.

So what about the team that has an enrollment of 96 and projects that approx. 20 kids are going out. Let's say of the 20 half are freshmen. You have to give teams the option to opt down. The same people that say "don't let schools opt down" are usually the same ones that say "it's too bad (insert C-2 school name here) had to cancel their season because of lack of players". What makes 95 the "magical" number? Until the NSAA starts factoring in percentage of boys/girls into 3 year enrollment their is always going to be that need for schools to opt down.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

So what about the team that has an enrollment of 96 and projects that approx. 20 kids are going out. Let's say of the 20 half are freshmen. You have to give teams the option to opt down. The same people that say "don't let schools opt down" are usually the same ones that say "it's too bad (insert C-2 school name here) had to cancel their season because of lack of players". What makes 95 the "magical" number? Until the NSAA starts factoring in percentage of boys/girls into 3 year enrollment their is always going to be that need for schools to opt down.

Some how every other state in the United States of America has managed to do it, so this must just be a Nebraska issue, Thats SAD

 

[Buff-alo]

Until you've been in the shoes of the schools that have to go week to week wondering if they could play, or even worse shut down their season mid-way through, don't judge. Easy to say when you are an outsider looking in that it's black & white, here is the number, deal with it. So if you are above the number with no option to "opt down" yet you know you cannot survive an 11 man season with the team you have, do you just cancel your season? Is that your solution? NOW that is SAD...

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Until you've been in the shoes of the schools that have to go week to week wondering if they could play, or even worse shut down their season mid-way through, don't judge. Easy to say when you are an outsider looking in that it's black & white, here is the number, deal with it. So if you are above the number with no option to "opt down" yet you know you cannot survive an 11 man season with the team you have, do you just cancel your season? Is that your solution? NOW that is SAD...

Unlike you I have been outside the state of Nebraska and Yes have dealt with it, No varsity season Just JV, its no ones fault except those who do nothing in the school ( those students that participate in nothing), its tough but its the way it is, deal with it and get over it. The laziness and lack of Participation of 4 or 5 schools is not the problem of the entire state to deal with by not allowing a normal cutoff for a class of football. It is the problem of that district. Life is not always a dozen roses and everyone doesnt always win and you dont get to always play the feel sad for me card. Damn tree huggers anyways : )

 

[Buff-alo]

So what about the school district that has a high ESL population and a big enough chunk of students that speak little or no english. These students count towards that 3 year enrollment number. When you have 95 students in your school and approx. 15 to 20 of them sitting in the ESL room most of the day learning English, this can seriously impact the numbers of your athletic programs across the board. Usually those students are also working jobs after school to help support their families and or babysitting little brothers and sisters because mom and day are working the evening or graveyard shift. Footballl is not a family priority and therefore is never even considered. Trust me, it's not a lack of laziness, because a large majority of these kids are working their butts off to help out their family. You want to call them lazy, I call that having their priorities straight. They would probably love to play football, but as you said "life isn't always a dozen roses" and these kids don't get to be kids and play a "game". They are too busy dealing with real life. Again how can you judge schools and towns that you probably have never visited and know nothing about.