Playing Time Limit

[nenebskers]

Just curious....when I was in high school I remember that a player could play in a maximum of six quarters of basketball games in one day. For example two quarters of the JV game and four quarters of the varsity game later that night. I believe there was no limit on the amount of football playing time a player could have in a week.

I remember being from a small D-2 school with probably never more than 18-20 kids on the team almost every kid played in the varsity game on Friday night in some capacity ala starter, back-up, special teams, blow out (which many 8-man games are), etc...then a good majority, roughly 10-14 kids turned around and played the JV game again on Monday night. This mainly effects the role players on the varsity who are probably playing the majority of snaps in both games. With all the new data coming out on brain injury and concussions I wondered if anything had changed. If not I find it a bit surprising and would imagine something will change in the near future. Doesn't the NSAA restrict full contact to a certain number of days each week now or is that just during the pre-season?

One thing I've always disliked about the way they handle the smaller classes playoffs is the odd days that they play with short rest..ala not your traditional Friday night games once the playoffs happen. Kind of goes to the same line of thinking.

Seems like the NSAA has made some strides in player safety in regards to heat exhaustion but I don't recall seeing as much for concussions. THOUGHTS?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

PC this is not but dont really care
lets just put skirts and flags on them and call it powder puff game, we make rules in football that it suppose to make things safer with out every trying them out first, what if all this makes for more concussions this year. Then what the NFHS and NSAA just say oh my bad just thought we try it with no research based data and/or trail cases. Sorry to all those kids but we just do sh&&t to try it with NO evidence or research that it works first. Because that it exactly what they do and just did.

 

[Yossarian23]

PC this is not but dont really care
lets just put skirts and flags on them and call it powder puff game, we make rules in football that it suppose to make things safer with out every trying them out first, what if all this makes for more concussions this year. Then what the NFHS and NSAA just say oh my bad just thought we try it with no research based data and/or trail cases. Sorry to all those kids but we just do sh&&t to try it with NO evidence or research that it works first. Because that it exactly what they do and just did.

Not really intending to defend the NSAA, but much of that post is just plain false.

"Some states had already adopted similar limitations in previous years. In 2013, Texas began limiting its players to 90 minutes of full-contact practice per week during the regular season and postseason. Preliminary High School RIO injury surveillance data suggest that the new policy resulted in a statistically significant decrease in concussion rates during practices, and similar results were seen in Arizona, Maryland and Alabama after comparable changes were made to practice rules in those states."

NFHS Article

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Not really intending to defend the NSAA, but much of that post is just plain false.

"Some states had already adopted similar limitations in previous years. In 2013, Texas began limiting its players to 90 minutes of full-contact practice per week during the regular season and postseason. Preliminary High School RIO injury surveillance data suggest that the new policy resulted in a statistically significant decrease in concussion rates during practices, and similar results were seen in Arizona, Maryland and Alabama after comparable changes were made to practice rules in those states."

NFHS Article

But just as you have found that, you can also find that concussions have decreased in practice but increased by 8.5% in games, so they just robbed Peter to pay Paul

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Not really intending to defend the NSAA, but much of that post is just plain false.

"Some states had already adopted similar limitations in previous years. In 2013, Texas began limiting its players to 90 minutes of full-contact practice per week during the regular season and postseason. Preliminary High School RIO injury surveillance data suggest that the new policy resulted in a statistically significant decrease in concussion rates during practices, and similar results were seen in Arizona, Maryland and Alabama after comparable changes were made to practice rules in those states."

NFHS Article

“We believe this revision minimizes risk to football student-athletes, while allowing for the teaching of appropriate fundamentals,” said IHSA Executive Director Marty Hickman in an announcement issued by the IHSA. “This is another important step in making high school football as safe as possible, while putting all of our schools on an even playing field regarding football activities during the summer.”

 

[huskersox86]

I am also going to defend the NSAA a little bit. They had really no say so in this. This rule comes down from the NFHS, and the NSAA is required to follow it. That being said, I have noticed a decrease in concussions, at least within my team and teams we have played. But, I have seen an increase in elbow and shoulder injuries. I feel that is due to the decrease in game speed contact in practice which has caused poor tackling form, and increased arm tackling. The trade off is concussion for arm/shoulder injuries. Is one worse than the other?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

I am also going to defend the NSAA a little bit. They had really no say so in this. This rule comes down from the NFHS, and the NSAA is required to follow it. That being said, I have noticed a decrease in concussions, at least within my team and teams we have played. But, I have seen an increase in elbow and shoulder injuries. I feel that is due to the decrease in game speed contact in practice which has caused poor tackling form, and increased arm tackling. The trade off is concussion for arm/shoulder injuries. Is one worse than the other?

Contact limitations were not set by NFHS each state has its own, but I agree they were highly encouraged to do so

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Contact limitations were not set by NFHS each state has its own, but I agree they were highly encouraged to do so

I am not saying that it was not a good idea, I am just saying that the collection of data supporting any changes is very limited and that processes needs to improve drastically if they truly hope to make any sport safer

 

[Bison_bob]

Depends....25 years from now would you rather have a bum shoulder or not able to remember where you left your keys?

 

[Yossarian23]

But just as you have found that, you can also find that concussions have decreased in practice but increased by 8.5% in games, so they just robbed Peter to pay Paul

Where? I've googled "concussions increase 8.5% in games" and several other variations of the same info, and found nothing that is recent, about football, or related to that type of info.

Thanks for the help.

 

[nenebskers]

Glad to see some discussion going here.

Back to my original question...there is no competition playing time limit in a week like there is for basketball, correct or am I wrong?

 

[bones96]

8 quarters in a 7 day period.

 

[SPbObRT]

Nutjob being just that nutty

 

[huskersox86]

Depends....25 years from now would you rather have a bum shoulder or not able to remember where you left your keys?

I agree with that statement for the most part. However, most concussions result in a kid missing a week, sometimes it is 2-3 weeks. In most cases, one concussion is not going to have the permanent side effects you mentioned. On the other hand, many shoulder/elbow injuries can end someone's playing career permanently, and can have lasting effects. If nothing else, it usually results in the end of their season for sure.

Again, not saying that something didn't need to be done about concussions, because I think that it did. I just think that everyone jumped in with both feet before fully looking at all the effects of their decisions.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Please...everyone educate yourself about concussions and young players. I truly love the game of football and I hope we can come together and make it more safe.

Here's a recent article having to do with NFL players and CTE. There is an interesting point of view from a researcher of head trauma, Chris Nowinski.
“Three million kids are playing football before they get to high school, and that’s where we can focus on prevention,” said Nowinski, whose Concussion Legacy Foundation hammers home additional numbers, such as the fact that 3.8 million concussions occur per year and only one in six are diagnosed. “We need to stop hitting children in the head for sport. A lifetime of brain trauma opens the door to terrible things.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/s...-robertson/article36242022.html#storylink=cpy

 

[beachbums]

However, most concussions result in a kid missing a week, sometimes it is 2-3 weeks.

I don't know where you are getting this from. I'm an athletic trainer working with middle and high school athletes and I've never cleared anyone to return to play from a concussion before 2 weeks. Most concussions I see result in 3-4 weeks before they are cleared, sometimes longer. The athlete is not going to complete a properly implemented concussion management protocol in one week.
Example:
1. Athlete is removed from play after suspected concussion
2. Athlete is evaluated by a licensed health care provider (Physician, PA, Certified Athletic Trainer)
3. If a concussion is diagnosed, athlete is removed from all physical activity and symptoms are monitored daily. Athlete is instructed to rest (stay off of computer, video games, tv, texting etc.). Starts a return-to-learn protocol at school.
4. Once the athlete has two consecutive days of no symptoms they can take the Impact Test (computerized concussion test) and the results are compared to their baseline. If they don't pass they wait and retake the Impact Test every 4-5 days until they do pass.
5. Once they are symptom free and pass the Impact Test they start a five step return-to-play protocol before they are cleared to return to play with no restrictions.
Step 1: Walk 20-30 minutes continuously
Step 2: Jog 20-30 minutes continuously
Step 3: 20-30 minutes of running and agility drills
Step 4: Non-contact sport specific practice drills
Step 5: Full practice with no restrictions
6. If any symptoms present themselves during any of the steps, the activity is stopped. They need to wait 24 hours and start back on the previous step.
7. Once the athlete completes all five steps they can be cleared to return to full activity with no restrictions.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Good stuff Huskersox. Do you feel this protocol is being followed to the letter at a majority of high schools in Nebraska?

 

[beachbums]

The schools that have a Certified Athletic Trainer managing concussion injuries will follow a protocol similar to the example I posted. Unfortunately not all schools in the state have access to athletic trainers and those schools might not have access to anyone that has the education or experience to properly monitor a concussion management protocol.

 

[huskersox86]

Straight from the NSAA Website:

1. Rest, No Exertional Activities until symptom-free (asymptomatic)

• Physical & Cognitive (mental) Rest

(This would be Saturday and Sunday)

2. Light, Aerobic Activities

• Walking, Biking; No weight lifting
• Review Post-Concussion Symptom Checklist
  • following 10-20 minutes of light, exertional activity

(This is Monday)
3. Sport/Position/Event Specific Exercises & Drill

• Individualized, light - moderate conditioning/running drill, agility drills, light weight lifting; throwing, catching, kicking, shooting, passing, mat drills;
• Continue to monitor Post-Concussion Symptoms (checklist)

(This is Tuesday)
4. Non-Contact practice

• Continue to monitor Post-Concussion Symptoms (checklist)
• Inspect helmet; assure fit & properly functioning system

(This is Wednesday)
5. Full-Contact practice

• Continue to monitor Post-Concussion Symptoms (checklist)

(This is Thursday)
6. Competition

• Continue to monitor Post-Concussion Symptoms (checklist)

(This is Friday)

If a concussion gets diagnosed on a Friday night, and an athlete follows the 24-48 hour protocol for each step, then they could progress and be returned to play in 7 days. Nowhere in the NSAA laws does it say that they have to complete the impact testing before they can begin step 1. We don't even allow our athletes to take the impact testing until about the 4th-5th day after the initial diagnosis. Also, you can take the impact once daily, not having to wait every 4-5 days.

If an athlete gets diagnosed with a concussion on Friday night, they can rest Saturday and Sunday. Say it is Saturday at noon the last time they had any symptoms, then by Monday at noon they can see a trainer and begin step 2 that day in practice. If all progresses well Step 3 starts Tuesday. Again assuming everything is good, Wednesday can begin step 4. This is typically the day we do the impact before they can begin the non-contact portion. If that day goes well, Thursday is a full contact practice (step 5). Then if they are still symptom free, then Friday they can return to play.[/QUOTE]

 

[huskersox86]

Good stuff Huskersox. Do you feel this protocol is being followed to the letter at a majority of high schools in Nebraska?

Unfortunately, I do not. A few years ago we had an athlete that had suffered a concussion. He was a senior, and this was not his first or second concussion. He was not cleared to play through the coaching staff or the athletic trainer. His family took him to several doctors being turned down from all of them. Finally, they took him to a pediatrician in Omaha and got an all clear note signed. He played about 3 plays before the coaching staff saw he is not ok, and took him out and did not allow him to play the last 2 games of the season.

What I'm getting at is since there was a Dr.'s note, some coaches would have played that athlete regardless. Also, why that Dr. signed an ok releasing the athlete to play, I will never understand.

We follow it very closely. We have a trainer that comes to school twice per week, and have one on the sidelines for games. We follow the NSAA protocol, do the impact testing, and only allow an athlete to return to play when they have passed all of the steps in the protocol. Like I said, this is generally in the 7-10 day range. In a few instances it is 2-3 weeks.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Thanks Huskersox for your obvious passion and expertise in keeping athletes safe. What are your thoughts on the article that states only 1 in 6 concussions are accurately diagnosed in youth football?

 

[huskersox86]

I don't think that it is probably too far off actually. However, I think it is over diagnosed as often as they are missed. A kid may get up a little wobbly, and the trainer immediately says I think he has a concussion. Now, whether it actually is a concussion or not, you have to treat it like it is. Also, there are times that I think a kid isn't ok, but the trainer says they pass all of the sideline tests. I always hold a kid out if I think there is any suspicion of them not being 100%. To some extent, it is very much a judgement call since there is no way to immediately test for a concussion 100%.

Example, we were playing Humphrey St. Francis 2 years ago in Humphrey, and our QB got up a little wobbly at the end of a play. Their trainer immediately comes across the field, looks at him for 2 seconds and says he has a concussion. This is in the beginning of the 2nd quarter. The kid is very diabetic, and when he tested his blood sugar at half time, his blood sugar level was 45. He is suppose to be between 85-120. He calculated his own stuff, and did what he needed to do. By the end of half time, he was 100% ok. But, since the trainer said Concussion, we had to go through all the return to play protocol. He was not able to practice for the majority of the next week, which effected the next game since he was the QB.

I would prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Thanks again for your insight Huskersox.

 

[nenebskers]

http://m.norfolkdailynews.com/news/...4ee-727c-11e5-aad8-0bca5ea36823.html?mode=jqm

 

[s.lattimer]

Please...everyone educate yourself about concussions and young players. I truly love the game of football and I hope we can come together and make it more safe.

Here's a recent article having to do with NFL players and CTE. There is an interesting point of view from a researcher of head trauma, Chris Nowinski.
“Three million kids are playing football before they get to high school, and that’s where we can focus on prevention,” said Nowinski, whose Concussion Legacy Foundation hammers home additional numbers, such as the fact that 3.8 million concussions occur per year and only one in six are diagnosed. “We need to stop hitting children in the head for sport. A lifetime of brain trauma opens the door to terrible things.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/s...-robertson/article36242022.html#storylink=cpy

I love when people skew data or misrepresent data to prove their point. 3.8 million concussions, in what...just football, all sports. What is it? 3.8 million in just your with 3 million kids playing? 1 in 6 are diagnosed? I'd love to see the data for that study. I've seen articles and studies that state youth football has a much lesser occurrence than high school, and so on. I'd be more worried about crappy dad coaches teaching bad habits than concussions.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Mr. Lattimer:
http://m.norfolkdailynews.com/news/...4ee-727c-11e5-aad8-0bca5ea36823.html?mode=jqm

Again, please educate yourself if you are a coach or a parent. What happened in Laurel could have ended much worse and it is due to an uneducated coach. I wish Garrett a speedy recovery.

 

[s.lattimer]

Mr. Lattimer:
http://m.norfolkdailynews.com/news/...4ee-727c-11e5-aad8-0bca5ea36823.html?mode=jqm

Again, please educate yourself if you are a coach or a parent. What happened in Laurel could have ended much worse and it is due to an uneducated coach. I wish Garrett a speedy recovery.

What happened at LCC is a result of an idiot. Bringing up that incident after calling out an article you posted with skewed/manipulated data somehow requires "education" on concussions is misguided. I can assure you, I'm up to speed. Maybe you should find some real stats on concussions and youth football.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Wow, that escalated quickly...didn't mean to insult your intelligence, we ALL should continue educating ourselves about athlete safety until the day we retire. Can we agree on that? All the best to you.