Ranking Ineligible teams

[huskerfan1414]

If the ONLY goal of high school football is winning (games, districts, making the playoffs etc.) then your observations are spot on! However, if the goal is to safely allow as many kids as possible to participate then that logic doesn't really hold water.

As I said in my previous post, teams and fans that don't have participation problems oppose opting down while teams and fans that HAVE participation problems are just happy to be able to play in a competition pool that keeps kids safe.

If a team that opts down with 20 players (give or take) is going to ruin the season of a competitive team then that competitive team is probably not all that good to begin with. If our football playoff structure was 8 teams instead of 4 times that number I would venture to say that NO opt down team would ever effect the playoff picture.

8 teams in D1 is just crazy especially considering that teams are at the mercy of nsaa scheduling. Are u serious that if there were eight spots it wouldn't affect the playoff picture??? What if a bigger school hands a legal school the loss that keeps them out of the eight team playoff?? Seriously the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile.
And stop with the safety crap...that's the most overblown and incorrect reason for opting down. Teams opt down cuz they are afraid to suck, period. (and I'm not against opting down especially considering the current number.)

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

8 teams in D1 is just crazy especially considering that teams are at the mercy of nsaa scheduling. Are u serious that if there were eight spots it wouldn't affect the playoff picture??? What if a bigger school hands a legal school the loss that keeps them out of the eight team playoff?? Seriously the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile.
And stop with the safety crap...that's the most overblown and incorrect reason for opting down. Teams opt down cuz they are afraid to suck, period. (and I'm not against opting down especially considering the current number.)

I think highschoolfootballnut, HighPlainsCoach and huskerfan1414 might be related and possibly live on the same street in Creighton!!

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

If the ONLY goal of high school football is winning (games, districts, making the playoffs etc.) then your observations are spot on! However, if the goal is to safely allow as many kids as possible to participate then that logic doesn't really hold water.

As I said in my previous post, teams and fans that don't have participation problems oppose opting down while teams and fans that HAVE participation problems are just happy to be able to play in a competition pool that keeps kids safe.

If a team that opts down with 20 players (give or take) is going to ruin the season of a competitive team then that competitive team is probably not all that good to begin with. If our football playoff structure was 8 teams instead of 4 times that number I would venture to say that NO opt down team would ever effect the playoff picture.

So your answer is to let teams opt down and limit playoff births to the teams that are playing in the correct class, so basically penalize teams in correct class so teams that cant field enough players get to play. Sounds like more logic from a generation that believes everyone should get a ribbon and lets not keep score.

 

[huskerfan1414]

I think highschoolfootballnut, HighPlainsCoach and huskerfan1414 might be related and possibly live on the same street in Creighton!!

Haha. But in seriousness, do you think there should only be eight playoff teams? Wouldn't that actually hurt the legal teams more than help them? That part of the argument made no sense to me.
And as I said I'm ok with some teams opting down with the current number where it is but let's not pretend it's for safety. Maybe for one or two but not all of them.

 

[SPbObRT]

BigRedThoughts lmao, that was a great post!!!

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

The effects of teams opting down to 8-man creates an inbalance in ev

BigRedThoughts lmao, that was a great post!!!

Where you been old sport

 

[tr50]

1. It doesn't matter whose ranked. Stu and Ryly Jane's opinion hold as much weight in the playoff setup as yours or mine. Make your own rankings and post them on this board.
2. You could discuss that parochial schools have been playing down a class forever.
3. There was an argument that schools that opt down to 8 man should just not play at all (it's their fault after all). If that's the case, all schools should just play 11 man period. If you have 11 kids out for football, then by God, toughen up and play 11 man. I mean who wouldn't want to see Arthur County play McCook?

 

[ClkTwr2011]

I did not clarify my point of 8 playoff spots very well, and that is my fault.

If there were only 8 spots, the games against ineligible teams could NOT count in terms of being factored into playoff qualification. So in the case of Creighton and N.O., Creighton would get the benefit of competing against a team "capable" of beating them however the loss would not help or hurt their chances of being considered for post season play.

My point (which I admittedly did a poor job of communicating) is simply that if 60% of the Class is getting into the playoffs, a single game against an "ineligible" team should really not make a difference one way or another as far as eliminating an "eligible" team from post season consideration. If there was an 8 team playoff, the current system would not work.

To be clear, I believe that 32 teams is way too many to take to post season play. Maybe 8 is too few however, 32 is just too many.

 

[Charger83]

23 kids is not enough for 11 man football. I am sure that Creighton has nearly the most kids out for football in 8 man. The rules allow them to drop down, so they did, if the rule wasnt in place they wouldnt drop down. There are plenty of examples where it makes perfect sense, Homer, LCC, Ravenna, Thayer Central etc... are not competitive in 11 man and those kids would be in harms way in a larger classification. Player safety should be the way the decision is made. I have seen some of theses teams play 11 man in recent years and it was not a pretty sight. I guess I dont care as much as others that Creighton lost a game.

Creighton's number is 83, which puts us in Class D. Only were above the Class D number for two years and used the grace period before being right back down. Neligh-Oakdale has a great team led by talented Seniors this year with only 14-16 kids suited up at some games. I would also have liked to have seen them in the playoffs.

 

[scuba8803]

How about lets just get rid of all athletics in the school and go all club. The kids can go play for anyone they want then we wouldn't have to worry about opting down. Make classes by the number of kids at the schools where the club draws from. For example instead of GI having 3 teams they would have 1, but if they have 3 they are in the same class because they are pulling from the same kids. I am not saying it would be the best thing or right thing but it would be the easiest way of fixing the opting.

 

[SPbObRT]

Nutty I've been all over the globe looking for Pokemon's and idiot clowns!

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Nutty I've been all over the globe looking for Pokemon's and idiot clowns!

LOL best post so far

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

1. It doesn't matter whose ranked. Stu and Ryly Jane's opinion hold as much weight in the playoff setup as yours or mine. Make your own rankings and post them on this board.
2. You could discuss that parochial schools have been playing down a class forever.
3. There was an argument that schools that opt down to 8 man should just not play at all (it's their fault after all). If that's the case, all schools should just play 11 man period. If you have 11 kids out for football, then by God, toughen up and play 11 man. I mean who wouldn't want to see Arthur County play McCook?

1. If it doesn't matter why do the opt-down bunch insist upon their participation awards?
2. Utter nonsense. Until no sped or esl kids are allowed to play, or until someone shows me that less than something on the order of 60% of D1 football kids aren't free/reduced lunch kids while in HS, those assumptions hold zero credibility.
3. I'm sorry, I didn't realize Arthur County and McCook were actually classified in the same class. If a school wants to be more competitive, who can blame them, but please don't expect to be rewarded for simply finding the right competition.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

I hope Creighton goes undefeated next year and beats all opt down teams and then gets blasted in the playoffs like they did last year, then we won't have a long thread like this again. Creighton lost a game, big deal, they had to play a team that opts down and is within the rules to do so, big deal, some teams opt down for safety reasons, this is a true statement, if NO only has 16 kids on game day they need to opt down, 16 teams is probably enough for playoffs, as only 4-5 teams at most have a realistic shot to win it all.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

Honestly I could care less how Creighton does one way or the other. My preference is that these games, if they must occur, do not affect the playoffs one way or the other. Or we create a class just for the C2 schools who don't want to play other C2 schools in football. If you can't field a team in the class you're in, either co-op or don't field a team. It seems simple to me. Not trying to make all of you neligh people angry, just stating to me, anyway, what seems obvious.

 

[Bhb301]

Not sure how this thread became a thread about Creighton and Neligh. It was intended to discuss the ranking of option down teams.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

Not sure how this thread became a thread about Creighton and Neligh. It was intended to discuss the ranking of option down teams.

because Creighton lost a game and they want to complain about it, the rules are the rules and people want to complain about it. Dont worry they will lose a fair game in the playoffs!!

 

[dogs 93]

I'm from Creighton and have heard nothing but good things about Neligh's team. Quit stirring the pot unless your willing to put your name and address to your post.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

I'm from Creighton and have heard nothing but good things about Neligh's team. Quit stirring the pot unless your willing to put your name and address to your post.

I know a lot of people from Creighton and they have complained about losing to NO, I am not from Creighton, I just hate all the complaining, NO enrollment is 4 different than creighton and they act like they had to play a huge school that opted down. people should say more good things about NO, they could win it all in D-1 this year but kids dont have the opportunity, so let them play for a ranking!!

 

[ClkTwr2011]

Honestly I could care less how Creighton does one way or the other. My preference is that these games, if they must occur, do not affect the playoffs one way or the other. Or we create a class just for the C2 schools who don't want to play other C2 schools in football. If you can't field a team in the class you're in, either co-op or don't field a team. It seems simple to me. Not trying to make all of you neligh people angry, just stating to me, anyway, what seems obvious.

I understand your points as I read along with what you are saying. Between you and I are just a simple difference of opinions. I don't think it matters if a newspaper chooses to rank a team that has opted down. You on the other hand feel that these media outlets should not recognize these teams in their rankings. That is certainly fair enough.

I compare it to the Coaches poll and Writers poll in College Football. It is nice to have something to talk about, but the only poll that REALLY matters is the College Football Playoff rankings. However, if you see it differently you are not wrong. It is a simple matter of opinion.

As far as Neligh Oakdale goes, I am not really sure that their wins this year have actually had an impact on the playoff picture.

Creighton- Leading District 3 by almost 3 points
Omaha Nation- They are 2-5, and 3-4 wouldn't help them
Clearwater/Orchard- 2-4, and again, 2-3 wouldn't help them
Howells/Dodge- They are 4-2, and 2nd in District 4 behind NO (who can't move on)
Clarkson Leigh- 3-3 and 4th in the same district as Howells/Dodge
Pender- 3-3 and 2nd in their district behind 6-0 GACC

There is only one of their opponents that MIGHT be effected by playing NO, and that is a stretch to say the very least. As long as there are 32 spots available, the NO opponents are not suffering from the losses. Seeding...perhaps? Having to stay home...not yet.

 

[dogs 93]

I know a lot of people from Creighton and they have complained about losing to NO, I am not from Creighton, I just hate all the complaining, NO enrollment is 4 different than creighton and they act like they had to play a huge school that opted down. people should say more good things about NO, they could win it all in D-1 this year but kids dont have the opportunity, so let them play for a ranking!!

Never heard anything like that. You can email these supposed Creighton fans that are bad mouthing Neligh and I will confront them. Creightonbaseball@hotmail.com. I'm sure you just want to stir the pot!

 

[Bhb301]

I know a lot of people from Creighton and they have complained about losing to NO, I am not from Creighton, I just hate all the complaining, NO enrollment is 4 different than creighton and they act like they had to play a huge school that opted down. people should say more good things about NO, they could win it all in D-1 this year but kids dont have the opportunity, so let them play for a ranking!!

Ya no one in Creighton is complaining about losing to NO. The opposite actually I have heard nothing but good things about N/O and their team this year from creighton. Sounds to me like your team has lost to Creighton a few times and as soon as they lose a game you want to make sure everyone in the state hears about it. It would be nice if people remembered these are high school kids and maybe we should celebrate the fact that creighton is 5-1 and N/O is 6-0 and both schools are having fantastic seasons.

Also once again not sure how this even became the argument in a thread that has nothing to do with Creighton.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

Never heard anything like that. You can email these supposed Creighton fans that are bad mouthing Neligh and I will confront them. Creightonbaseball@hotmail.com. I'm sure you just want to stir the pot!

I dont even follow 8 man football, just know a few people from Creighton, glad to hear that most people are supportive of NO. I just get upset when people complain about schools that opt down, not the kids fault, and forcing them to play 11 man is not safe with low numbers.

 

[tr50]

1. If it doesn't matter why do the opt-down bunch insist upon their participation awards?
2. Utter nonsense. Until no sped or esl kids are allowed to play, or until someone shows me that less than something on the order of 60% of D1 football kids aren't free/reduced lunch kids while in HS, those assumptions hold zero credibility.
3. I'm sorry, I didn't realize Arthur County and McCook were actually classified in the same class. If a school wants to be more competitive, who can blame them, but please don't expect to be rewarded for simply finding the right competition.

I didn't realize Neligh-Oakdale was begging to be ranked. My bad, I guess.
It's amazing that the parochials that are in towns of Class A size seem to do really well in football every year playing in C1 and C2.
You were the one saying all schools should play 11 man or don't play at all. On a side note, if Creighton were to lose to a D2 school, should they lose more points then losing to a D1?

 

[huskerfan1414]

I dont even follow 8 man football, just know a few people from Creighton, glad to hear that most people are supportive of NO. I just get upset when people complain about schools that opt down, not the kids fault, and forcing them to play 11 man is not safe with low numbers.

I think it's crap that you have posted that you hope Creighton loses.
I'm not from Creighton nor have I heard of any complaining, but it sounds like the sore one here is you.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

I think it's crap that you have posted that you hope Creighton loses.
I'm not from Creighton nor have I heard of any complaining, but it sounds like the sore one here is you.

Not at all, never seen Creighton play, dont follow eight man football, just heard some complaining about having to play a team that opts down. Creighton has 30 on roster and NO has 16, some have stated that they should play 11 man since they are C2 or not play, that is simply ridiculous and to co-op is difficult for the short term.

 

[huskerfan1414]

"Dont worry they will lose a fair game in the playoffs!!"

"I hope Creighton goes undefeated next year and beats all opt down teams and then gets blasted in the playoffs like they did last year, then we won't have a long thread like this again"

Sounds to me like you are, in fact, hoping that Creighton loses both this year and next year. Very big of you.

Not at all

 

[ClkTwr2011]

Not at all, never seen Creighton play, dont follow eight man football, just heard some complaining about having to play a team that opts down. Creighton has 30 on roster and NO has 16, some have stated that they should play 11 man since they are C2 or not play, that is simply ridiculous and to co-op is difficult for the short term.

I agree with the challenges that surround the co-op.

On the surface, it seems like the natural thing for schools/communities to do. If your numbers tail off, just get a nearby community to co-op with you. However, in order to do this you need a nearby community that is in the same situation and both schools have to be at the same place in the cycle as far as coming to the realization that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

St Edward is a good example of this. The numbers in St Edward are obviously diminishing. At last count, they were at an enrollment number of 37. However, this small community does extremely well in 6 Man football. They are geographically between Boone Central/Newman Grove, Twin River, Fullerton, and Lindsay Holy Family. If they co-op with Twin River that puts them in C-1. If they go to Fullerton they end up in C-2, and add about 10 football players. If they go to Twin River they end up C-1 and have a total roster of about 30. Humphrey/LHF, they end up in the middle of C-2. Or, they stay where they are playing 6 Man and competing for the state title year in and year out. Schools around them may be attracted to the athleticism and tradition, but it is not necessarily in the best interest of all parties involved.

There is just a lot more to it than a simply phone call.

 

[scuba8803]

Nutty I've been all over the globe looking for Pokemon's and idiot clowns!

Say what you want but I am tired of people complaining about things like what this topic turned into, the nsaa, or what every the flavor of the wee is on here. Simple solution get rid of sports in the schools then there no cancellations due to low numbers, no body has to worry about opting down.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Say what you want but I am tired of people complaining about things like what this topic turned into, the nsaa, or what every the flavor of the wee is on here. Simple solution get rid of sports in the schools then there no cancellations due to low numbers, no body has to worry about opting down.

Yeah why try to improve on something Just quit its easier

 

[oldnewballcoach]

As the starter of this thread, its amazing where it went. I am not from Creighton but I believe Creighton will do very well in the playoffs and that N-O game will have no effect on them. The one thing that got me thinking about this topic in the first place, was looking at the NSAA wildcard standings by class. As I was trying to visualize where everyone stood, I though it was slightly annoying to remember, or keep going back and look at who was eligible and who wasn't. I then just threw the rankings comment along side for a side thought. Nothing more, Nothing less. Glad to see that some topics will still garner some comments and discussion. Not too often anymore, that you can get 2 pages of responses on here without the trolls taking over. Thanks everyone for your comments.

 

[SPbObRT]

do they still have the smoke machine in Creighton?

 

[teachmehowtosnuggie]

I personally believe there should be 6 Districts, and 2 wild cards in all classes.

I know you mentioned in your post that this thread has gone all over the place, but I feel you just took this thing in a totally different tangent. I cannot fathom an 8 team playoff in C1/2. That's less than 20% of the teams in both of those classes. I'm not one of those folks that thinks everyone should make the playoffs, but 8 teams out of 43?

How would you create 6 districts without creating an unfairly stacked district? For example, C1-4 has arguably the 3 best teams in the state in the same district already.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

because Creighton lost a game and they want to complain about it, the rules are the rules and people want to complain about it. Dont worry they will lose a fair game in the playoffs!!

Again, I could care less about Creighton...or Neligh for that matter. My only recollection of N-O is when they played in THEIR class in football. If they want to find smaller competition, fine. Just don't pretend it's a big accomplishment.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

I didn't realize Neligh-Oakdale was begging to be ranked. My bad, I guess.
It's amazing that the parochials that are in towns of Class A size seem to do really well in football every year playing in C1 and C2.
You were the one saying all schools should play 11 man or don't play at all. On a side note, if Creighton were to lose to a D2 school, should they lose more points then losing to a D1?

Sure seems like a really, really big deal to some of them.
So do the public schools bordering them...tuition free. Again, when no sped kids contribute and the majority of D1 football scholarship recruits AREN'T free and reduced kids maybe you'll have some sort of point.
Nope, said that you should play in your class or not play. Big difference. What it really comes down to is finding someone these schools can beat. The more someones they can find, the better decision it seems to be. I happen to disagree. Otherwise let's just pair schools by size. Every single school is a runner-up or State Champion. Perfect.
Ultimately, I don't care, nor do I really look down on these bad programs for opting down. Just don't expect recognition for it.
And yes, in any sport that the school schedules you should deduct penalty points for playing down just like getting bonus points for playing up. We used to do it that way.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Again, I could care less about Creighton...or Neligh for that matter. My only recollection of N-O is when they played in THEIR class in football. If they want to find smaller competition, fine. Just don't pretend it's a big accomplishment.

I dont care about Creighton or NO either, this is an example of a need for a few,effecting over 100 teams , because they opt down C2 now has a top end near 135, just 4 years ago it was 119 and in D-1 it makes districts with 2 of the 5 not able to make playoffs, small schools risking players in games that only have consequences for one team and 32 in the playoffs with over 15% of the teams eligible and in D2 it raises its top end also, because 11 schools have a problem, now over 120 have a negative effect from it, even a small negative is to much. This why NO other State in USA allows this. They dont submit to the crying and poor me crap.

 

[Charger83]

do they still have the smoke machine in Creighton?

I've mentioned it in the past, but your memory must be failing you lol. Come to town next week on Thursday and find out for yourself.

 

[ClkTwr2011]

I know you mentioned in your post that this thread has gone all over the place, but I feel you just took this thing in a totally different tangent. I cannot fathom an 8 team playoff in C1/2. That's less than 20% of the teams in both of those classes. I'm not one of those folks that thinks everyone should make the playoffs, but 8 teams out of 43?

How would you create 6 districts without creating an unfairly stacked district? For example, C1-4 has arguably the 3 best teams in the state in the same district already.

I suppose you could throw away the Districts and just take the top 8 in points?

Softball has been this way forever...sometimes 3 of the top 5 are in the same district and someone is going to get left home. Basketball has been this way forever too. Arguably the second best team in the state gets left home. It is just the way it is.

I just don't feel that the answer is to make half the field "special" or "elite". 8 teams is enough, and I don't really care how you pick them. We can get to 8 in Softball and Basketball. I see no reason why we can't get to 8 in Football as well.

By the way, the season is not over yet. C1-4 isn't done playing yet. What if one of those 3 teams in C1-4 drops 2 in a row down the stretch? Wahoo has to play Bishop Neumann and Aquinas yet.

 

[huskerfan1414]

I suppose you could throw away the Districts and just take the top 8 in points?

Softball has been this way forever...sometimes 3 of the top 5 are in the same district and someone is going to get left home. Basketball has been this way forever too. Arguably the second best team in the state gets left home. It is just the way it is.

I just don't feel that the answer is to make half the field "special" or "elite". 8 teams is enough, and I don't really care how you pick them. We can get to 8 in Softball and Basketball. I see no reason why we can't get to 8 in Football as well.

By the way, the season is not over yet. C1-4 isn't done playing yet. What if one of those 3 teams in C1-4 drops 2 in a row down the stretch? Wahoo has to play Bishop Neumann and Aquinas yet.

Everyone makes the state playoffs (tournament) in softball and basketball. Everyone.

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

highschoolfootballnut and HighPlainsCoach are still angry, lets make a team with 16 kids play C2 11 man football, totally ridiculous.