I've been hearing that Valentine and Gordon-Rushville will be opting down to C2 next cycle. Nothing beyond rumors however.
Schools moving to 8 man or moving up to 11 man (List)
- Thread starter Coach PowerT
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With the raising of the limits so high, it will force all of the smaller C2's to do that eventually, imo. And that's too bad.
Honestly, one Class C would be more beneficial for everyone I think. I’ll dive into it later and breakdown How districts would work. But with everyone going down to 8 man, it makes sense, especially for teams out west.
We're getting there. It's still a few years away but it's coming. Football will be 5 or 6 classes and basketball 4 or 5. Bound to happen eventually.
Unfortunately the NSAA and member schools tend to be reactive and not proactive. It always takes things to go wrong for a few years before we see change.
One class C would be exceptionally stupid. You are talking about around 90 schools if you take C1 and C2 and combine them...meanwhile class B will have something like 24 this next cycle. You seriously think that is a good idea? 24 in one class and then 90 in the next. No way.
You guys may very well be right. But I hope not. And I dread the day that you are. I love C2 football. I, frankly, don't understand the push to force schools that routinely can get 25-30 kids out for football into a lesser product. Otherwise, with your "one class C" idea get ready for those ever exciting Roncalli-Palmyra, York-Cross County, and Aurora-Doniphan/Trumbull games.
Part of the problem is the, way-too-small, number for Class A. I'd suggest 360, or lower. If you have 480 boys in High School, you should be able to field a team that is competitive with anyone.
I can hardly wait to watch Aurora-Shelby Rising City, Holdrege-So Valley, York-Cross County, McCook-Chase County, and Alliance-Bridgeport. Heavy sarcasm included...
If you go with one class C, then you better make class A and B have more schools in each class.
Why? Your making a lot of assumptions about class B schools. It would never unfold in the way you portrayed. That was a good extreme fairytale though.
Holdrege and Aurora would be C for sure. Alliance, McCook, and York are in the bottom 25% of B. Not far fetched at all, especially with cross class games.
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Why would Aurora and Holdredge automatically be in C? Why would McCook drop down to C? It's far fetched in the manner that your saying that the structure of B wouldn't change with it. Even if B wouldn't change why would the matchups you gave happen as those are class B schools?
If the state went to a 5 or 6 class system its not as simple as taking the current D1 and D2 into one and C1 and C2 into another. Cutoff lines would change. If C was one class it wouldn't work unless A and B was expanded.
I agree with what your saying, but I don't know that it would happen the way you think it would. The big "to do" with the NSAA right now in football is to minimize the huge number difference between the top of B and the bottom of B. For next cycle Aurora will be C, I think Holdrege will be C. That was the number 1 reason behind setting enrollment numbers as cut lines, to shrink the enrollment gap between the biggest B school and the smallest B school.
I'd like to think if they merged both C1 and C2 into one class (C) it would mean the top third of current C1 would go up to B, but I'd bet it wouldn't happen because then you get that big numbers difference between top of B and bottom of B. I'd be hard pressed to believe they would build that gap after they just shrunk it. That's all I'm saying.
Regardless, the thought of Aurora playing Shelby-Rising City is insane, and those two would end up in the same district. Holdrege would be in a district with St Pat's (whose number was something like 35 for this coming cycle). You really think that is good for high school football?
The gaps from top to bottom of A-C1 are probably unfixable. The gaps are HUGE. Can’t punish successful programs because others can’t keep up however. Best fix would be to classify by roster size but I understand that’s probably impossible even though that’s the real issue. Schools playing with roster sizes half the size of their opponents are going to struggle. Strong programs play good football and have community support. Weak programs don’t. Things cycle but some schools are just better jobs than others. Just the way it is.
Unless their enrollments go up measurably or they are very "boy-heavy" the following schools will move from B to C1: Sidney (309 9-11 enrollment), York (309), Roncalli (306), Aurora (295), Platteview (294), Gross (293), and Holdredge (283). You do understand the way the new classification works, right?
Unless their numbers are nose-diving, they have no business playing 8-man. You're looking at between 70-75 boys in high school.
Your exactly right, that is insane. I don't think myself nor anyone else that is advocating for a four class setup thinks that would be a good idea.
Class B is an issue with the school size gap. As someone else mentioned that many of the C1 schools are more similar to B than C2. I'd agree with that, especially at the top. Many of the bottom and middle of C1 schools however fit in with the top C2 schools. The main thing that is challenging is closing the gap in B. I've mentioned this before that the member schools and NSAA are approaching it in the wrong way. Instead of shrinking the bottom of B off shrink the top of the class off. After you get past Elkhorn, Elkhorn South, Gretna, South Sioux, Columbus, Hastings, Scottsbluff, and Ralston the enrollments drop fast with many being in that 250-400 range. Those top teams mentioned in B could compete in class A. Most do in other sports already. Facility wise they are similar and most were A at some point in the last 10 years. The thing that pushed them out more than declining enrollment (very minor in most cases if at all) is the addition of Papio South, Lincoln SW, and Lincoln Northstar and growth of Pius. Because of this I feel the solution is to have A and B both go to 36 for all major sports. This would put the largest B at Lexington (630) and then Blair (554). Besides Lexington the enrollment gap is majorly closed compared to current. Next the top 12 in C1 would go up to B. Enrollment size, facility wise, etc they are similar to the remaining class B schools. Lastly combine the remaining C2 schools and we have a new class C. Combine D1 and D2 to make one 8 man Class.
A four class system (5 for football for 6 man) would encourage more schools to coop. Right now schools are so afraid of going up a classification. I can't blame them as most times it consists of one school that badly needs it and another that doesn't. The school doesn't need it would rather stay where they are as opposed to add another school and go up a class.
Also, look at the enrollment gaps of other states, especially in volleyball and basketball. Iowa for example has a four class setup. Not sure of the exact cutoff but somewhere around 150 and down is the smallest class. It's not crazy to have a four class system, some just don't like change because that's the way we've always done it. With the number of schools we have in our state a 6 class system is getting absurd. The quality of postseason play is getting worse in all sports.
Lastly, I would do like many states do and have overlapping 8 and 11 man cutoffs.
My thoughts are that the bigger the schools, the less the gaps matter. And the bigger the school the lower the participation rate. You get to a certain number of boys, and have a functional school system/ community, you have enough. I'd like to think if I have 400 boys in a school, I could find a dang good football team from time to time.
Yes, completely understand. I think I've said multiple times now that the extreme scenarios given would not be good. Move on and stop trying to disagree on something that I am agreeing with
Do you understand that we are discussing hypothetical changes? I never said combine C with the proposed structure. I said a four class system would be ideal.
My apologies for misunderstanding. Going to less classes under the future structure WOULD lead to games like we've pointed out. And again, going to fewer classes will destroy, once and for all, C2 football as we know it.
The only way some of these things are fixable is to merge Nebraska with Iowa. Make one big school association. That's the type of initiative it would take to have enough similar size schools to have large, vibrant classes at each size. I know that's a ridiculous suggestion (probably should throw in the Dakotas, Kansas, and Wyoming while we are at it) but that's the situation. There aren't enough schools of similar sizes to create the seven classes that we instinctively feel we need for competition. You can slide the numbers around, but there just aren't enough schools.
The choice is combining classes in a way that would force many schools into 8-man or 6-man when they could play 11 (along with some other competitive situations that feel unhealthy) or create some classes that feel way too small (schools-wise).
I think small classes is the lesser of two evils. I think that's the second time I've gone to that cliche in two days, but those are the choices you face in Nebraska classification issues.
The choice is combining classes in a way that would force many schools into 8-man or 6-man when they could play 11 (along with some other competitive situations that feel unhealthy) or create some classes that feel way too small (schools-wise).
I think small classes is the lesser of two evils. I think that's the second time I've gone to that cliche in two days, but those are the choices you face in Nebraska classification issues.
No problem. Always enjoy a good debate and thankful for those who are active on the board! The joys of communicating through written words!
Agree, 100% that the current structure would be disastrous. It will take time, maybe 5 years or maybe 25 years, but eventually I'll put my money that we will only have three classes of 11 man.
People talk constantly about these small schools making a co-op, but nobody ever talks about the horrible A and B schools making a co-op. Can someone honestly justify why Benson, Bryan, and Northwest all have programs? Why couldn't the three of those schools co-op? They could probably be pretty good!
I bring this up on this thread because the fewer teams there are, the less classes are needed. Combining 3 A teams makes it more feasible for the top of B to move up to A.
Never thought of having poor Class A teams co-op. Normally everybody talks about co-ops because smaller schools might not have the numbers to participate in activities.
What are the roster sizes of those schools, freshman through senior? Do they field JV and freshman teams?
Good question. There are some people that suggest a co-op as an answer to a poor program. There are other people that believe a co-op should only be used to save a program or keep football in a school when participation numbers are decreasing. Some people think a co-op should be used to keep your program playing the same style of football (8-man schools co-op to stay 8 man instead of dropping to 6, 11 man schools co-op to stay 11 man).
I have always felt like a co-op should be a last effort to save a program, not to "get good quick", but it seems like that is the way it is going now. That's why I'm surprised Bryan/Benson/NW all exist on their own.
I agree. A big problem is the bottom of C1 and bottom of B. I think adding teams to Class A and B would actually solve some problems. 32 in each. I also like the idea of struggling Class A programs looking at coop. Different way to look at coops for sure.
Granted, completely different sport with all sorts of different depth/safety issues....but this already happens in cross country.
Class A: 28 teams
Class B: 33 teams
Class C: 43 teams
Class D: 117 teams
Yes it would!! Aurora will potentially be in class C-1 this next cycle. I heard that from Dr. T himself.
