No, they just dont play, its that simple, but I am sure the other 49 states have it wrong
Ranking Ineligible teams
- Thread starter oldnewballcoach
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No, they don't. That would be districts. Everyone makes districts.
Same as football. 4 or 5 non district games and 4 or 5 district games which would result in a trip to the playoffs, or not. It depends on the number of games on a given schedule before the playoffs.
Yes they do.
The regular seasons do not matter in softball and basketball if you are a poor team or a borderline team, you can still make state via the postseason system.
If you win your district TOURNAMENT, you make state. (And if you have enough power points)
Everyone, therefore, is in the post-season. Unlike in football.
Stacked districts in football will most definitely leave out some of the best teams if you had an 8 team post season. To argue otherwise is foolish. Eight is not enough in C1 or C2, and certainly is not enough in 8 man.
Football is much different than softball and basketball, sports in which every team makes the post-season. (not advocating that for football)
32 is too many, 8 is too few. 16 is good for C1, C2. 24 should be the total for 8 man.
How are we improving things? This topic was a good question that turned into people complaining about a high school football game, A High School Football GAME! If you go all club you don't have to worry about teams playing down a class. Listen I am not trying to be disrespectful by saying club is the best answer, but my goodness its the same general
I agree change needs to happen it should be 24 for all classes but A & B and that should be 8.
I understand that there are differences, but I respectfully disagree with your point that everyone is in the post season. Football is really no different. If your FOOTBALL team is poor or borderline, and they win their district they make it to state.
David City Aquinas (as an example simply because they were near the top in the alphabetical list)
Raymond Central
Pierce
GICC
Columbus Scotus
These 4 opponents make up their "regular season". David City Aquinas could lose every single one of these games. They are of no consequence. These games mean nothing in terms of winning their way into the playoffs.
Bishop Neumann
David City
North Bend Central
Wahoo
These 4 opponents make up their District Play. Anything that happened before these games means nothing. If they win these 4 games, they are in the playoffs because they won their District. It is in fact the same.
They are set up the same way, there are just fewer games in total.
Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. In Michigan they are starting to form more 8 man leagues and giving schools the opportunity to play 8 man to avoid too much travel, not fully established yet, but moving in that direction.
They are starting 8-man, why is that wrong and how does it compare to opting down You have almost hard to even listen to.
EXACTLY!! Thank You for pointing this out.
I think it is great that Nebraska (NSAA) is dedicated to getting as many kids on the field as possible. Yes, this may mean opting down in some cases. However I believe that we are doing a good job of making football available to every kid that wants to participate.
Let me spell it out for you, they are allowing some smaller schools who have traditionally played 11 man OPT to play 8 man due to reduced numbers/participation. It is virtually the same thing as opting down/choice. It is also good for the state because most 8 man teams have to travel long distances to play, the more schools that choose to play 8 man the less travel for the kids and school systems. My point when I said "the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard" is when you said the kids should not be able to play. High school football is about the kids, could you really tell kids they cant play because of low numbers and not being able to field an 11 man team?
And yet ANOTHER excellent post!
"High school football is about the kids..."
In my opinion, this deal is not all about the playoffs or winning. There is more to it than that. I know that some don't share this opinion, but I just don't see it any other way.
But the other sports are seeded after the season is over, just like in the football playoffs. The difference is that every team makes it in those sports. Then softball teams are seeded according to power points. It is a true postseason unlike your scenario. The best eight teams would not make the playoffs every year under your system, and I don't think you can argue against that without stretching the truth or hoping for some super luck.
I'm not advocating that every team should make playoffs but eight in c or d is just crazy. Plenty of teams with a loss have gone on to win state, and there would be numerous one or two loss teams from tough districts left out.
I understand what you are saying about seeding the teams within the district in other sports however Football is a round robin format when it comes to district time. There's no reason to seed them because they all play each other.
And under "my system" (which isn't my system at all), the best 8 teams don't make it. Softball is that way now, basketball is that way now. There's no reason for football to be any different.
Well you are wrong Oklahoma has 8-man football its called class B and C and they have more teams than Nebraska. NEXT reason why nebraska is the cry baby state
Let me help you out
Alabama, Arizona, California,Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri,Montana, Nebraska,
New Mexico, Nevada, Oklahoma,Oregon, Tennessee and Washington have eight man football programs.
States with 9-man teams Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota
6-man States:Texas has 234 six-man football teams , Florida, Nebraska, Alabama, Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota and Wyoming
NON (Except Nebraska) allow teams to opt down and play in any District, in some states teams do opt down but play only each other and are not part of any district.
Alabama, Arizona, California,Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri,Montana, Nebraska,
New Mexico, Nevada, Oklahoma,Oregon, Tennessee and Washington have eight man football programs.
States with 9-man teams Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota
6-man States:Texas has 234 six-man football teams , Florida, Nebraska, Alabama, Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota and Wyoming
NON (Except Nebraska) allow teams to opt down and play in any District, in some states teams do opt down but play only each other and are not part of any district.
But keep in mind where the cutoff limits are for each state. I looked into this last year and Nebraska had one of if not the lowest cutoffs for 8 man. Again, let's get to the real root cause of schools opting down.
Yes in other states like Oklahoma our C2 schools play 8 man football. Just a thought here, but I would like to see C2 to be 9 man football, D1 8 man football, and the rest 6 man football. Teams can opt up, but not down.
So, it's dependent upon everybody else to make sure that a C2 school that can't get kids to play is able to field a team? If you can't field a successful team in the class you belong, it's ok to affect a large number of schools for your benefit? I disagree completely. What's really ridiculous, in my opinion, is a C2 school with such disarray that can only get 16 out for football and still expect to field a team. We have open enrollment so kids can seek better opportunities. Parents choose transferring for all sorts of reasons including access to programs that some schools don't offer. Footballnut laid out a great argument. It's not just the smaller schools that are affected.
I'm not at all willing to concede that 104 kids in high school is a particularly low cutoff. That's, on average, 52 boys. You get half out for football, you have 26.
Not picking on any one team BUT in D1 Pender will make playoffs and currently has not beat a single team that is eligible for playoffs. I betting this is the first time that has ever happens any where in the USA
So Nebraksa has the cutoff limits right and the rest of the country has it wrong? Nebraska has the lowest in the country. Not arguing, just looking for insight on your thoughts.
Participation levels are down across the whole country. When were the current limits set? The 80's or even before that? Time to adjust with the times instead of trying to ram a square peg in a round hole and say that schools/kids/communities need to be more like Tommy Toughness.
Always curious if 8 man limit was raised to 100 and allow schools to opt up how many would stay 8 man vs opt up to 11.
Would love to see 9 man but think that having 11, 9, 8 and 6 would be difficult.
I AGREE NEBRASKA HAS THE LOWEST IN THE USA. But 8-man schools will not change it and part of this embarrassing mess is on them.
So Nebraksa has the cutoff limits right and the rest of the country has it wrong? Nebraska has the lowest in the country. Not arguing, just looking for insight on your thoughts.
Participation levels are down across the whole country. When were the current limits set? The 80's or even before that? Time to adjust with the times instead of trying to ram a square peg in a round hole and say that schools/kids/communities need to be more like Tommy Toughness.
Always curious if 8 man limit was raised to 100 and allow schools to opt up how many would stay 8 man vs opt up to 11.
Would love to see 9 man but think that having 11, 9, 8 and 6 would be difficult.
Always a testy subject... So lets take your 26 man roster High Plains Coach. Of those 26 lets say 7 are freshman that have ZERO business being on a 11 man varsity football field, especially up in Northeast Nebraska where a majority of these opted down teams reside. So now you have a pool of 19 to draw from. Maybe there are 6 sophomores and you are lucky if half of them are even ready for Varsity action by their sophomore year, but lets say half so your pool is now down to 16 to pick from. Oops...don't forget those 2 foreign exchange students that your school got that are curious about American Football. Lets line them up against Battle Creek and properly introduce them to our wonderful game. Pool to 14. Then you have a Junior boy that moved in from another town, played the game when he was in Jr. High but hasn't played since, and will need time to know your system. What the hell throw him to the wolves. Down to 13 to start your 11 man football season. Now injuries are almost always a factor, especially season ending. I think 2 players lost for the year due to injury is a fair estimate. Let's say 1 is varsity so now your pool is to 12. Then lets bring in the factor of our now "Concussion Crazy Nation"....I have a headache so therefore I have a concussion, well that kid is out the next week, if your lucky it's only one. Pool to 11 for the next week. Well then their is Timmy your best lineman, he doesn't qualify for special ed, but damn he isn't very smart and math kicks his butt. Either Timmy misses practice to keep that grade up or he is ineligible, that is lose/lose for the head coach. Not to mention then every Monday for 6 games you are probably going to have to risk close to half of your varsity squad so you can field a J.V. Squad. Bet you lose at least one varsity starter due to a J.V. game injury over the course of the season. "Just Cancel the J.V. Season and only field a varsity team" you say, well that is just wonderful for the youth of your program. They will learn a lot by letting players 4 years older, stronger, more experienced, and more mature than them kick the snot out of them on Friday nights. Well then these kids get tired of getting their behind kicked for 9 games and not even getting to play games against players of like ability, so guess what they don't go out their sophomore or junior season. Is that your fault since you had no choice but to play them so you could field a team on Friday Nights? Until you have been a school that has played the numbers game week to week, hold your stones fellas. Easy to judge from a distance.
I say lets just go "Hoosiers"....screw 8 man football. If you have enough to play 11 man football that is all you play. No more classes either, just one giant class, because apparently your enrollment says that you are fully capable of fielding a competitive 11 man team. One class...Omaha North versus Omaha Nation, maybe they'll make a movie about it someday.
I say lets just go "Hoosiers"....screw 8 man football. If you have enough to play 11 man football that is all you play. No more classes either, just one giant class, because apparently your enrollment says that you are fully capable of fielding a competitive 11 man team. One class...Omaha North versus Omaha Nation, maybe they'll make a movie about it someday.
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To me they are clearly wrong on being able to play down, so it is a distinct possibility that the NSAA is wrong from time to time, as most would agree. I would argue that a small school in rural Nebraska should be able to get half their boys out. If not, to me, the problem is systemic. Raising the limit, in effect would simply force the smaller C-2 schools to give up 11 man football. I would guess, and I don't follow it closely, it's already pretty lonely for the C-2's in their 80's and 90's.
Very good post, I think player safety is paramount and it is amazing that some people do not want to see this as a real problem. The opt down teams in Northeast NE needed to go down, watching them play 11 man was painful and it led to several forfeit games. hsfootballnut and HighPlainsCoach will not be satisfied until everyone agrees with them.
Long time lurker on this thread but I did want to add something regarding 9 man football. Its been said that its played on a smaller field but its actually quite common to be played on a 100 yard field. I believe SD's rules even allow for either configuration. Its essentially as said before where 2 lineman arent there but everything else is the same. I find on the low end of C2 size on the line is usually the main issue. Theres no reason that like minded coaches at schools in Northeast Nebraska couldn't band together to administrate themselves in a 9 man league similar to the 6 Man Coaches Association. Even with just a few schools it would be easy to fill a full slate with Gayville-Volin, Centerville, other schools in South Dakota nearby. South Dakota is not rigidly scheduled into districts like Nebraska either so it would be possible. This would keep schools from effecting the playoffs in 8 man, they could safely field teams, and would require nothing from the state other than writing 9 man in a box every 2 years when they declare.
I used to coach in Oklahoma and there are 2 classes of 8 man Class B and C. The classes are divided equally and in case they are not there may be more teams in C. Class 3A-1A is divided by 3 and that puts an equal number into the lower class of 11 man which is Class A. Now IF a Class A school has an enrollment number smaller than the largest Class B school which is 8 man and they chose to go down to 8 man, then that Bigger 8 man school has to move up to 11 man because they will always keep the same number of schools in Class B no more and no less, There is no opting down you either play in that class or not at all.
Using your math a 50 man Wilber roster could be in big trouble! I don't, completely, disagree with all of your premises. Certainly in a perfect storm scenario 26 could be cut to 12. Never seen anything so dramatic, but I fail to see how a 30 kid or 27 kid roster (2 of the opt down schools) couldn't field a team. It really comes back to being competitive doesn't it? Again, where do we draw the line? Should a C1 with less than 50 out be able to play C2? A B? What about some of the bottom dwelling metro schools? Someone told me that it isn't unusual for a bad program to have 45-60 kids out...9-12! And, 50% OUGHT to be a very low baseline expectation for participation. If you're that low their is something systemic going wrong. IF a school chooses to opt down, so be it, but no rewards for doing so.
They aren't rewarded...can't win a district title and ineligible for the playoffs. As far as rankings those are just B.S. anyway, how is that a reward. I think they rather be in the play-offs then have a bogus ranking. OWH and LJS don't care about anything below Class B. Half the time I think they just "copy" and "paste" last years rankings to kick off the next year...lol. Some "opted" down schools may be a systemic problem, but don't just lump them all together. Each school has it's own issues. These schools can't help that they are stuck in limbo. They don't belong in C2 and D1 coaches and administrators won't raise the number to let them into 8 man. You look at the record of a majority of these opted down schools and they are struggling to compete in 8 man anyway. Neligh-Oakdale is an exception, who up until this year had been playing 8 man for 4 years eligible to make the playoffs. Let's not act like these schools dropped down to dominate the 8 man game. In most cases a lot of them are getting blown out at the 8 man level as well, but at least they don't have to put 3 more players out there on each side of the ball that have no business being on a varsity football field. I also bet that most of them had a full J.V. slate this year and were allowed to develop their younger talent, which I bet is one of the biggest reasons these schools opt down.
That's an interesting idea. One of the good things about 6 man, IMO is that THEY control their membership. Some teams get turned down, in fact. Maybe that is a way to handle the opt down. Allow the correctly classified schools to decide if they WANT to play the larger school. I'm sure the Neligh folks will demand a captive blood sacrifice from among the D1's, but to force a school to play an opt down strikes me as inherently unjust.
That's because this got off tangent...it wasn't about the rankings anymore. It became about D1 letting too many into the playoffs and bashing the schools that opt down. That's why I joined...could care less about rankings.
I agree with this post whole heartedly.
Until you have witnessed this agonizing scenario, it's hard to believe it can happen. Total roster of 27. Between injuries and ineligible players there are 11 standing on the sideline in street clothes.
Once again, programs that have plenty of participation don't like the opt down. Programs that struggle for numbers like the opt down.
I have tried to determine or figure out if even one single opt down team has ruined another teams post season bid so far. If anyone knows of of this please share the details.
I have 49 States that agree with me, just trying to get the last one, but seems Nebraska is a let the needs of the few effect everyone State, must be a blue State thing : ) Tree hugger State never thought I would see it in Nebraska but seems thats what it is. : )