You Don't Walk My Halls
- Thread starter Buff-alo
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This is where some of you are not comprehending what’s going on with schools opting down. The larger schools opting down don’t have a numbers advantage over the teams they are playing when opting down. The reason they are opting down is because of the lack of numbers. So, to say they have more to choose from is not accurate. In fact, most of them have the same or less to choose from.
It is a culture in that school correct, but then again anyone could claim that as a reason correct ?
This isn’t like the times when you and I grew up and kids went out for football just to be with their friends. There are a ton of kids walking halls in schools that aren’t going to go out for sports so they can get a job and get paid - especially the ones that would never see the field. You can just be naive about the whole situation and think that it comes down to strictly the culture. And I guess if you’re culture is so strong at said school - it wouldn’t matter if some “bully” school opted down to play you cause you’d still beat them. That is, if your culture was any good.
A culture should only be measured among schools of the same size, regardless of what excuses are made. How do you think the worst culture in Class A would do if unleashed on Class D2? When you're playing schools smaller than you are it can be amazing how much better your culture looks. Again, these schools shouldn't EVER be allowed to impact the seasons of schools who are doing things right, even if the results of the school that BELONGS in the class are not ideal. THEY shouldn't be punished. The opt downs play only opt downs, or if a school wants to play them. Even so, the game is an exhibition. And no rankings, no all-state, all-district, no nothing. If it's just "we want to play!", that stuff shouldn't matter.
Let's be realistic about teams opting down - Class A team opting down to play 8-man? Really? Some of you act like these teams opting down are showing up to the games with double the players as their opponents. Just because a team opts down it doesn't mean they are doing things the wrong way - it means they are doing what's best for their program. I don't have any problem with scheduling teams that opt down to only play each other. My issue is that some of you can't think outside the box on why some teams have to opt down.
It seems as if some of you have all the answers on culture and development of a program that you shouldn't care less if a team opts down to play you. But I guess if you lose to a team that opts down - then it's easier to complain about it. Doesn't Class D take 32 teams into the playoffs? I highly doubt a team that loses to a team opting down misses out on the playoffs because of 1 loss. Teams usually don't make the playoffs in Class D because they just aren't very good.
All along I thought a couple of the tough guys teams on here would embrace the challenge of a quality opponent that could help them get more prepared for the tops team in their class. But I guess not, they just want to schedule some other pud team where they can pad their stats and win a game. At least your teams can get that state playoff t-shirt and then go lose by 50 to the "top" teams.
Question for those who are in favor of allowing schools to opt down a class. Most of this conversation has focused around 11 man schools opting down to 8 man. Are you in favor of SSC, Schuyler, Nebraska City, etc if there are others opting down a class but still playing 11 man? If so, why are you in favor?
Also, those who are against opting down, is your stance the same or is it more indifferent if it involves SSC, Schyuler, or Nebraska City if they stay 11 man? If you are not as opposed, why so?
Also, those who are against opting down, is your stance the same or is it more indifferent if it involves SSC, Schyuler, or Nebraska City if they stay 11 man? If you are not as opposed, why so?
You keep saying team(s) that opt down should never play anyone that doesn't want to play them. So you don't believe Valentine and SSC should play anyone, and Schuyler and Nebraska City should play 9 times.. got it. And there should be plenty of teams who only play 8 games because those opt down teams do happen to make it so the NSAA can fill schedules in some cases.
I'm sure glade a team like Sandy Creek doesn't live with your mentality, and not want to play someone that opts down. Heck they took a game with a school 2 classes bigger the last two years when both were given an 8 game schedule, and they won both. It gave the boys from both schools a chance to play another game.
All-State and rankings are all the papers...go tell them to stop recognizing schools that opt down.
And your wrestling comparison is tired and old. I'm a basketball person, who grew up in a pretty good wrestling school, and all the discussions I've ever heard say that in most cases class B and C wrestling is tougher than Class A anyway. Plenty of schools wrestle across multiple classes....including your own invite that has a history of the top guys across classes meeting up. I don't think anyone would be scared of someone opting down in wrestling...I just don't see it.
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School "A" has an enrollment number of 89. They elect to opt down to play 8 man in D1. Now the NSAA schedules them to play School "B". School "B" has an enrollment number of 38 and is also playing D1. Not a math major but that to me, that is a significant numbers advantage. Just because School "A" doesn't (or can't) get their kids out and each school only has 25 out for football, that does not mean they are on an even playing field. That is the point I am trying to make. Again, if opting down is a schools best alternative have at it. Just don't try to feed everyone a line about everything being even. Build your culture within your town and school. Invest in the youth programs. Get those young kids to idolize the guys out there on Friday nights. It will take time and a ton of effort but it can be done.
I agree a lot more kids do nothing and thier patents are okay with it, but lots of schools are seeing this. I will ask again What if we just let schools have an option not to play opting down teams or they can if they want to. That way struggling schools playing in the class they are suppose to be in, have a choice if they want to play them or not, Wouldn't that be a easy fix?
What schools doesn't want to play someone? I'm curious if this really happens. To me that says a lot more about a coach who "doesn't want to play someone". How many schools that are opting down are successful? Howells used to be in the days of the Cornhusker Conference and prior to their 8 man state title streak. Wakefield is, and that debate has been hashed out on this site. Palmyra is, and I believe they are considering going back to 11 man. That would be awesome to see someone build their program back up and move back up...we don't see that often.
Can you imagine telling the world you don't want to play someone. Do you believe a school like Tekamah-Herman "wants" to play the likes of Oakland-Craig, Bergan, and Aquinas? Most of the times no, but I bet the coach doesn't tell his teams that, and sometimes you get a feel good win like beating a BRLD team that has thumped them the last 4-5 years. Do you believe North Bend was mad when opt down Schuyler was on their schedule? I bet Coach Maresh wishes he could have swapped Pierce for opt down Nebraska City because it would have allowed him to continue building his program at NBC into his own, but I will guarantee you he doesn't say a word about having a tough schedule.
So let me get this right - team "A" has 25 guys out that want to play football and team "B" has 25 guys out that want to play football but yet team "A" has a numbers advantage? Weird - I must be doing some math wrong. But I guess team "A" should have a better culture and develop their kids better. And by god they better get those other 64 kids out for football that have never played because that will give them their "advantage!"
I will be honest - I could care less who plays who. If I had an option to play a quality team that is opting down I would look at it as a great opportunity for our team to play against a quality team. Win or lose - we will still find out what we need to work on to get better as the year goes on. If the NSAA decided that all opting down teams had to play each other - great. I have no issue with what you are saying.
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I'm not a fan of opting down because when you think about it, it just doesn't make sense. Should Kansas football be able to drop to FCS and play the Dakota schools regularly, than once they have their "culture in place", move back up? All opting down does is mess with scheduling and hurts the size of 11 man schools at the C level.
SSC and Schuyler haven't benefited from dropping down to B and C1 respectively when it comes to the wins and loss column. South Sioux City has two wins this year, guess what? Both of those wins are against Class A teams.
Nebraska City is having a better year than years past, but they are only a few kids away from being C1, so maybe they are projecting to be C1 to get familiar with that class and opponents in football. They should be playing Auburn, Falls City, Platteview, Louisville, etc.
When it comes to C2 teams dropping down to D1. If School A has a tough time getting kids out, maybe approach School B who is 10-15 miles away to see if they want to form a co-op or consolidation.
Nebraska has 427 school districts
Nebraska has a population of 1.97 million people
Kansas has 309 school districts
Kansas has a population of 2.95 million people
Iowa has 327 school districts
Iowa has a population of 3.21 million people
Why does Nebraska have/need so many school districts?
It all comes back to that. If the state forced schools together, this would help make schools larger, to help get more kids to pick from to go out for football. I don't know what these two schools participation numbers look like, but for example. Instead of having Bayard (boy count of 44) and Minatare (boy count of 21) have them together to be at 65. Change the numbers for 11 and 8 man if the schools wish, but if Minatare has 15 boys out for football and Bayard has say 25, that is 40 kids. That is a big difference for depth, for culture and for support. Another example is Doniphan-Trumbull (44) and Giltner (20) for a total of 64.
Its simple Nebraska schools are mostly based of local tax dollars, state aid to smaller schools is little to nothing, so if the local tax payers want to keep their school they, Nebraska has way more local control, Second reason would be the less population in the same or more area and not many option to consolidate unless you are okay with your kids driving 20+ miles to school everyday
I admire your complimentary tone toward 6 and 8 man coaches, but I am wondering if there may be a better descriptive term than "best coaches". Coaching at every level comes with different challenges. I don't believe it to be easier or harder in any class. Don't think that player development is not as or MORE important in Class A than in Class D.
Curiously, how does someone "Indirectly" coach a middle school team or player? I am not sure I understand that.
Bad example. Wrestling is a sport that has zero dependence upon participation. Over half of the wrestling programs in C & D are not fielding a complete team. They are however bringing home Individual State Titles.
Go back to the drawing board and come up with something better. There are good examples, but this is not one.
If School A has such an advantage, then why do the end of year W-L Records rarely support that logic?
The majority of opt down teams still perform poorly. They simply have enough players to field a team.
Read the thread. I have stated the same exact thing in an earlier post. Merely pointing out the numbers advantage opt down schools have within their halls than others.
I guess you are one of those guys. I'll move on. Not to stir shit up on this subject again but are you telling me Parkview Christian and Banner County are on complete level playing fields???
If you choose to opt down in 11 man and still play 11 man it isn't obviously about "participation". If you opt to 8 man, your roster better be mid to low teens or that isn't about "participation" either. The biggest lie is that these schools couldn't (in most cases) field a team.
Guess I missed that you need less players to play C2 than C1, or C1 must need 14 on the field. My apologies.
But it's not an advantage. It is an arbitrary data point. If it was an advantage then the results (wins and losses) would support that data point to produce an advantageous position for larger enrollments. Yes, there are more students in the hallways. No, those students in the hallways do not equate to an advantage on the field.
If they perform poorly anyway, why opt down? It isn't about "fielding a team" in most cases. It's no different than opting down a weight class because you didn't have enough access weights and are underpowered. You are simply trying to find easier schools to beat. After all Millard North and North Platte St Pats both have 14 on their roster...no advantage for MN.
This thread is not about C-1 to C-2 although there are a few posts about that. This is about 11 to 8 or 8 to 6.
What is the average roster size of 8 man schools? I have no idea. In my opinion, as long as the roster size falls in or around that average number I believe it would make sense. I can't speak to all of these situations because I have never been to an 8 mon or 6 man game. You may well be right in that the team COULD field a team if playing up a level. I just don't know.
But it's a Catch 22. Twin River (my home town) is struggling horribly for participation numbers. They try to opt to a JV schedule but are denied by NSAA. They forfeit games at halftime or thereabouts and are criticized. They forfeit to Ord today, and are criticized. They try to opt down, and will be criticized. They try to co-op with St Edward and are denied. The try to talk to Fullerton and are turned away. Lindsay...well, we all know what a S(&@ Show that is right now. They just want to safely put a football team on the field, and I just don't know what direction to turn other than drop football or opt down.
This thread is about Wakefield's football team. They are not opting down in 11 man football. They are opting from 11 man to 8 man. Why all of the references between C1 and C2???
I honestly don't understand why a B>C1, C1>C2, D1>D2 option would ever be allowed. To me, that makes no sense.
NOT to stir shit up....I like that!! Don't even start me on the Parochial School thing. Ughhh!
So this is happening
https://norfolkdailynews.com/news/hundreds-gather-at-first-talk-about-co-op-between-catholic-schools/article_8026dfe0-a506-11eb-8a2f-67aa21dbb366.html
huskerlandpreps.forums.rivals.com
I believe the last thing LHF wants to do right now is talk to someone like Twin River! These Co-Op deals are not as easy as many believe them to be. Especially for a school like Twin River. The potential partners don't want to play 11 man football. They like 8 man, they are good at 8 man, and they know the C-1 ass kicking that is coming if they co-op with Twin River.
I simply mean that a smaller pool to work with (5-50 boys per class) means that that you are more affected by natural talent swings than larger schools with 100-600 boys per class. Some schools have large boom and bust periods - others seem to have runs that are 20+ years long. I've had great experiences with every 6-8 man coaches I've met and have been mentored by several, even though my coaching and teaching has been exclusively at Class A and B schools. I absolutely agree that coaching matters at every level, but I know there is a difference between having 8 freshmen come out for football and coaching up what you have and having 50+ and cutting more.
As for indirect coaching, I would expect the head football coach of a program to have more of a role/influence on a middle school program when that team's practice is happening 40-50 feet away on the next field over. I use the term indirect, because while he may not be walking over to coach them during his own practice, they are almost certainly running his system or a simplified version, and he probably has a say over who coaches the MS team. To put it another way - the coach at a C1 school has probably met every football player in his MS program and watched them play multiple times at the MS level, while a coach of a class A school in Omaha isn't able to have the same access to MS players, and there is more player movement (aka not directly feeding from a specific middle school to a specific high school). Again, simply my observations and experiences.
I feel that I came across very hostile to towards ANY team that opts down. I'm really not. I'd argue that the rule itself isn't a problem - when used as intended. Schools with systemic issues can opt down, with the implication that when/if they improve, they are able to "opt back" to their previous class and have full class membership (playoff eligibility). Historically, we have seen that for the vast majority, opting down does not result in more wins. If anything, it generates a mixed bag of creating engagement for many schools. In fact, I would argue that schools such as Schuyler and SSC should return to their original classes ASAP -the C1 Grinder is certainly not helping Schuyler, and over the last 3 years, SSC has beaten 4 Class A (or Iowa Equivalent) and 1 class B team (Schuyler).
My very specific gripe is Wakefield. They have actually been the success story of the opt down rule. They opted down due to legitimate concerns - their coach has created a strong culture that has restored their team numbers (maxpreps reports have them at low to high 30s over the past 5 years), while going 29-8 over that same time. The equivalent (I went to a random 10 schools at varying success levels) C2 program actually had less kids on their max prep rosters! Their coach wrote this post in 2019, after going 20-4 over 3 years. He then in 2020 went 7-0, and is currently 2-4 with a strong schedule/winnable games. They can obviously be competitive and have just as many kids as they would be competing with in C2, while the statistics would show they have an advantage over class D1 that is unlike any other program that is opting down. This is my problem - in my opinion, they are abusing a rule that was not designed for them. Why is it somehow unacceptable to go 2-6 or 3-5 in their rightful class, if that is the results of their season?
I went through Wakefield's actual rosters the past five seasons and we never hit the 30 person mark once(29 the highest). The last time we were over 30 was 2011(1-7 record). I knew max preps scores couldn't be trusted, and good to know that rosters can't either.
Alot of people want to crucify us for winning alot of games over the past couple seasons, but don't realize, or care to listen, to some facts.....
We had the luxury of sending 4 kids from the same(last year's) class off to play college football, 2 of which were late bloomers and didn't even sniff the field until their Junior seasons, even with numbers in the 20's. That would've made it impossible to see in years prior to possibly moving back up.
We've also have had some ineligibility hurdles to get over..... while we have a great EL program, it is still extremely tough for many students to meet the academic requirements and pass core classes. Throw on top our dozens of students seeking asylum from other countries that grows monthly that also count for enrollment. There are alot of great coaches in the state of Nebraska, but teaching English Language Learners how to play football is EXTREMELY difficult.
I know this will fall on many deaf ears, but just wanted to clear the air with some facts. I won't get into anymore arguments like a couple years ago, but if anyone wants to take up my offer and spend a day with me, you are more than welcome to send me a DM. I think the NSAA could also benefit from this as well.
People around here don't want to read or listen to any facts - it's hard for them to comprehend. Good post!
I want to make sure I am not getting confused by your post.
Are you telling me that you have a 29 kid roster and are opting down to 8 man? I guess I thought you had a 15 man roster or something like that. Don't get me wrong Coach, I am not passing judgement here because I don't want your job!! I am just surprised is all.
29 is the highest roster we've had since 2011, but there have been years where we suited in the teens due to injuries and ineligibility. Can check with our coaches to see what our lowest number on that was, but I'm not a coach.
If they are in the same class - yes. I'm beginning to wonder how bad your team got beat by a team opting down?
It doesn't matter. I am trying to gauge where Opt Down teams are to compare to my school. I am not a teacher, coach, or other faculty member. I am just a citizen that believes we need to seriously look at opting down before we get someone killed. We suited 16 last week and 9 of them were freshmen. For an 11 man game. We had one get hauled to the hospital Friday night, and he did not make the trip back with the team.
I believe another thing worth noting here and I know this will not be embraced well. When a team is playing one of these obviously disadvantaged opponents, it would really help the cause if said team would use some discretion, sportsmanship, and general common sense when trotting your team out on the field. I am not saying to throw the game, and I am not saying to even keep it close. I believe most readers will understand where I am going with this.
Some of our opponents have been very respectful and sat their starting lineup the entire game. Their starters played, but never as a unit. They got sprinkled in with their reserves and the game was treated as a learning opportunity for their team as well as an opportunity to work with the disadvantaged staff and team to try to help their program as well. Some of our opponents have played their starting lineup well into the 4th quarter and showed absolutely no mercy.
You just named many similarities to our situation and the decisions we made a few years ago! That is NOT a healthy 11 man program, and not safe for the kids.... Very few Freshmen are ready for varsity football, and many have no business being on anything other than a JV field for a couple years. We had to cancel our JV season and finally said enough is enough.
PS. Our numbers actually went up on the move to 8 man, kids expressed that they went out knowing that they wouldn’t get thrown to the wolves on 11 man varsity field too early.
The problem I have with Wakefield is this.......they turned down the opportunity to coop with Emerson Hubbard and Allen two years ago. In fact the coop had even announced a new name, nickname, colors, and even unveiled a logo. Their problem, and potentially the problem of two other schools, had a longterm solution and they are the ones that blew it up at the 11th hour, not Allen and not Emerson Hubbard. So when I hear they are doing what is best for their program I tend to get a little pissed off. Don't play the poor us game with me. You left two other schools at the alter days before declarations were due.
I'm torn on what the right solution is for schools who face the problem they are. Both sides make some very valid points. In the long run I lean towards playing in the classification you are in and wish the NSAA gave a little help such as allowing schools to play a JV only schedule.
I'm torn on what the right solution is for schools who face the problem they are. Both sides make some very valid points. In the long run I lean towards playing in the classification you are in and wish the NSAA gave a little help such as allowing schools to play a JV only schedule.
Not "Deaf", exactly...just tired of the same old excuses by teams thinking somehow there problems are worse than anybody else's. I know several 11 man teams who would LOVE to have such "low" numbers as mid to upper 20's. I have no problems with Wakefield, specifically. Never been there, never going to make a special effort to do so. Pretty much a non-entity in my mind. The excuse making and trying to justifying just gets so incredibly tiresome. You know who you are. Everybody knows who you are. All those wins you're being "crucified" for? Those dare games that should never have been played. You keep any real Class D teams out of the playoffs? Affect any seeding that might have allowed a home game, or matchups that could have let a team win a game or two? Cause any injuries to an actual team in the class, in a game that shouldn't have been played in the first place? You get off on beating up Class D schools with roster numbers approaching 30, fine, whatever. Don't care. Just quit pretending you're doing it for some other reason than to gain a competitive advantage, ok? No team should be able to "opt down". IF it's a numbers requirement they should only play each other. No school that's excited about bullying little schools should ever be allowed to affect that school. Maybe these C2's having to forfeit should be able to demand an 8 man game, instead?
I completely forgot that they blew up that co-op. I'm sure there is more there than we know (I'm not really local to NE Nebraska) but still - word was that it was them that backed out. I guess they didn't want to solve all of those things that are apparently wrong, so they can play in the class they should be in. I'd like to believe better of him/that school, but it is what it is.
